Bongofish

Screen Tablet malarky => Heyaaaalpppp => Topic started by: Gwenouille on December 21, 2009, 01:15:17 AM



Title: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 21, 2009, 01:15:17 AM
Hi !

 I am new to this forum.
I have read quite a few topics by now, but couldn't find any successful build around an intuos3 A5 wide (the 6x11 one). I have this tablet and thought i could "tune" it. But the ratio is quite strange really...6x11 ?
In fact i like it a lot because i can map my 2 screens side by side without loosing much tablet space. I don't like huge tablets: i do small movements...

So my first thoughts were: i have to find a smaller screen than the tablet, and in panoramic format too. The netbooks seemed to offer what i wanted, like for instance WSVGA (1024x600) screens. But this LDVS (or whatever ) problem seems too big a hassle... I thought it would be easier to use laptop screens: wrong.

Next step: photo frames. OK but how do you feed a signal into that ?

latest step: http://www.amazon.com/MP-920XB-Widescreen-Monitor-XBox360-Xbox-360/dp/B000OE9E3G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1261352121&sr=8-1
Hehe. ;D
 That seems better: it is bound to have some kind of input from the XBOX (what sort ? ) so there has to be a way to convert VGA/DVI to it.
It is small enough and 800x480 might just be enough.

What do you think ?

If i go this way, I'd like not to fully destroy my wacom and set the screen as "removable".

BUT

There are downside if i do that:
 1st: 800x480 ? Hmmm just about the minimum really. I thought i could get away with 1200+ or so.
 2nd: I already have 2 monitors (24'' and 17''). Using this tiny thing as a second monitor would take the second slot of my Graphic Card, leaving the 17'' useless. Not optimum.

And let's talk about this 17'': I bought it 15£ a while ago: the backlight was dead. I managed to rescue it myself (changing some transistors) but the problem reappered. I finally ordered a repalcement inverter board for 30 more € and now it works very well. I can well imagine transforming it into a "Gwentiq" !
That would allow me to keep my Wacom safe (or re-sell it ?) for the 24'' monitor and keep using 2 well sized monitors (better 17'' and 24'' than 9'' and 24'' !)
But that means i have to buy a huge tablet to fit it in ? I have said before that i wasn't a lover of huge tablets... Well i would have to learn to love them !

Has anyone tried using a dell e172fp (I have to search for that on the forum) ?


What way would you choose ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: cellofaan on December 21, 2009, 11:13:53 AM
Regarding the small tablet, I've put some thought into making one as well. Instead of an XBOX screen, you could also use a PSone screen, there are a lot of tutorials on how to connect those to a pc on the net.

An easier option would be a small monitor. Those are hard to come by. Digital photoframes are not really an option, as there's no (simple) way to connect them to a pc.
There are however, a few digital photoframes that double as a monitor. This one for example: http://www.gadgetvenue.com/samsung-spf800p-digital-photo-frame-12095833/
I think acer has one to.

They are quite expensive though.


The 17" screen might be a cheaper option. With some luck you could find a UD-1812 for cheap. With those you could actually have a 21" screen.
A problem I ran into with my hp L1820, is that the backlight slab is too thick. That might happen on a 17" as well.


You said you don't like big tablets. i don't either, when they're separate. It just doesn't work if you have to move your hand all over the place to get from the start button to the top right red to close a window.
However, when it has a screen on top of it, you tap the pen on the actual visual thing, so the feedback is completely different and everything goes much easier. So I wouldn't worry about making it too large.
I'd choose the safest route, which would be the 17" screen. So far, nobody has used an xbox screen or a digital photoframe, so there's not much knowledge around to help you. There are a couple of succesful 1812 projects, and taking a regular monitor apart has been covered here many many times. It'll be cheaper as well, if you don't break the screen.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 21, 2009, 01:58:29 PM
Thamks !

I really like the photo Frame you mentionned ! It covers my A5 wide rather nicely.
This usb in could be really handy. The problem is the price: a little to high for me !
EDIT: errrr, another problem: these use usb for the video in. Not the graphic card.
I guess this could lead to awful performances and possibly the impossibility to map a wacom onto them.
What are your thoughts ?


Concerning the other possibility (using the 17 inches monitor and an A3 wacom): these big tablets are so expensive !
And using a very old one (like intuos 1) scares me because of the old drivers and serial connectors: apparently there are quite a lot of problems on Vista, not to mention 7...
And I won't buy an intuos 3 or 4 A3 just for that !



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 21, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
A little update

I took apart my 17'' to put it over the wacom and test for possible jitter.
The lcd display comes in a metal casing with the ccfl.
Just laying that over the wacom prevents the last to work and detect anything. It might well be down to the thickness: it is alomost as thin as 3 CD cases (the thin ones) on top of eachother : 14mm.

I wonder how you guys did...
I have to do some research here, but it doesn't look good.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Patterick on December 22, 2009, 01:25:49 AM
The lcd display comes in a metal casing with the ccfl.


well that casing has to go ;)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: cellofaan on December 22, 2009, 03:34:32 PM
The casing indeed has to go. Everything metal will interfere with the wacom sensor.

I don't know if the usb-connection will be a problem for the mapping. I've never thought about that.
If I had to guess, I'd think it won't be a problem, as the mapping is done by the wacom drivers, and not the videocard drivers.
For the wacom, it only has to be recognised as a monitor by the computer.
And it is really expensive for such a small thing. That's the reason I stopped working on the idea.

I found my A3 wacom for 20 euros. It's an old one for sure, serial cable and all, but it works great.
The serial cable is a problem though. I bought a serial to usb converter, but the wacom drivers didn't recognise the new com-port.
Most (maybe all) Dell computers have a serial port, so I'm using it on a dell laptop now.
Vista is definitely a no go for a serial tablet. I don't know about windows 7.

If you put in some serious ebaying skills, you're bound to find a cheap usb-cabled Intuos2 or DigitizerII. Buying a second hand monitor could be the way to go as well.

One last thought. If yiu have an Nvidia graphics card, you could try NV-Keystone. It's some driver software which allows you t deform the screen image. Essentially it's meant to deform the image for a beamer which isn't aligned to the wall properly, but I suppose it should work on a normal second monitor as well. You could then use the 17" screen on your A5 intuos, and just scale the screen to the wacom.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 23, 2009, 01:42:15 AM
Hi again !

Thanks for your feedback on the casing.

About the photo frame: yes, a bit too expensive for what it is, especially if one doesn't know how it'll work.
Wacom say it should be fine though (asked the support forum)...

Quote
I found my A3 wacom for 20 euros
Waw... nice !

But i don't like this serial cable thing, really... Yes, maybe an old usb intuos 2...

Thanks for the tip on this nVidia app ! I use an ATI card, but there might be something similar around ? That is an interesting idea.

Meanwhile I thought I could explore another way (but quite expensive)
I've started considering that this A5 wide is more or less 16:9ish. So I thought there MUST be some laptop screenwith displaying that ratio.
Bingo, there are plenty displaying a marvellous 1366x768. Now that would fit this wacom quite marvellously indeed !
Some are 11.6 " diagonal, and a few (I have found 2 only) are 12.1".  The 12.1 ones are PERFECT ! They don't fill the surface fully, but leave a border less than 1cm wide all around, which is perfect considering that the tft screen has a frame.
Moreover they use LED backlight, which I presume is thiner (?). Do you now something about interference and LED backlight ?

The trouble might well be this LVDS thing, but I found that :http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/108386765/LVDS_and_TTL_Driver_for_PC.html
I think that would do well to drive the signal from the PC and send it to the screen.

But then there are cables between all that stuff, and a power suplly for it all... Mmhhh I don't know...

It seems more expensive than the usual "17'' on UD1212" but it could well be even better !

I await your impressions and idea  !

See you soon !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on December 23, 2009, 06:56:59 AM
For the LVDS driver, there is a thread for that on the forum -- http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1455.msg9647#msg9647 -- people in china selling them for a good price. You have to know your LCD Panel brand and model number. Do not even think of buying any LVDS driver without knowing if your LCD Panel will work with it or not.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on December 23, 2009, 07:38:56 AM
LED LCDs:
I would "think" that the led is better for jitter. But that is just a feeling. The idea is that the CCFL uses high-voltage AC which, in itself, can be a source of interference. The led will also use one of two frequencies, but at a much lower voltage and thus probably will emit less.  Does led mean thinner?  I am not convinced. For large TV sets, it does mean thinner, but for already-thin laptop lcds -- it might not make much difference (CCFL and LEDS tend to both be "on the side" of the panel, the space is mostly taken by the diffuser which is at a small "angle".

Wacom models:
Note that more recent WACOMs have less options in their drivers. On such option is mapping multiple areas which is very nice when the LCD is bigger than the tablet. (there are some posts about this)

Photoframe:
...would most likely require a separate driver board (LVDS). All devices like these have a LCD Panel as its internal component.  Again, you have to know the brand name and model number of the LCD Panel to know if a LVDS driver can be found for it.  (this information is difficult to find - the company typically won't tell you -- it might even change from one revision to the next without apparent differences, you typically have to crack-open it to know).  In other words, unless this is a killer deal, forget it.

One thing I suspect is that smaller LCDs and LCDs inside devices that are not laptops are not "LVDS" and thus more difficult to find cheap drivers, but I have very limited knowledge -- One thread was about the Eee PC and this was a problem (I think it is called "TTL" instead of LVDS).  "TTL" (like LVDS) refers to an electronic "standard" for digital "signals" so devices can interconnect "physically" (i.e. so they don't blow up). (This is totally unrelated to LCDs, but LCDs are electronic devices and TTL was used to feed all the bits for the R,G,B signals). TTL was extremely popular in the beginning of micro-electronics.

Wacom Forum
You mentioned: by "Wacom say it should be fine though (asked the support forum)..."  -- I am curious: What did you asked on the Wacom support forum exactly?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 23, 2009, 12:30:38 PM
Hi Bernard !

Thanks for your answer !

LVDS: OK, I have to read this thread right now. Have you had a look at the specs of the LVDS driver I linked to ? It seems to cover quite a large array of resolutions (1366x768 anyway), Both TTL and LVDS outputs etc, etc...
I might be wrong, but contrary to most LVDS drivers i stumbled upon on eBay, it seems to be able to drive different panels thanks to jumpers you position to define the resolution you want.
I am very tempted to buy one !

Older Wacoms: Hmmm... I don't want to fiddle with drivers too much. I don't like to think about how a 64 bit OS in 2012 will manage a serial-input device designed more then 10 years ago for instance... And because so many people decided to stay with Intuos 3 due to the nib-wear problem,I think Wacom will provide good support to them for a long time to come... Tht's why I'd better use a recent tablet. Besides the loss of area would be minimal if i choose such a 1366x768 panel.

LED LCDs: Yes, that sort of make sense concerning the jitter thing. OK for the thickness.One thing bothers me though: If my panel is LED-backlit, where do I plug the LEDs in ? There is no need for an inverter board, just for a stable DC 3.5V (i think it is a 3.5V drop for them) or so ?

Wacom Forum: well, I just asked if the driver would allow to map the tabled to a display that doesn't use the graphic card since it is USB. That is their answer:
Quote
If the graphics driver can handle it and Windows shows it as an extended display, the tablet driver should be able to map to it.
So I guess that's fine.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 23, 2009, 10:34:34 PM
Arf... impossible to get a 12.1" 1366x768 display on eBay... I've tried hours and hours and I oculd only find some 11.6" ones, but just a few...
The 12.1 are used in the MSI wind u210/u200 and Asus UL20 and EEE1201N. Not a large market yet...

Grrr... They would be absolutely perfect for my wacom... OKOK half an inch isn't that big...

I am keeping up hunting !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Gwenouille on December 28, 2009, 08:01:05 PM
So...

Not much happening over here it seems !?

I dare to re-ask a question i didn't get an answer for so far:
Quote
If my panel is LED-backlit, where do I plug the LEDs in ? There is no need for an inverter board, just for a stable DC 3.5V (i think it is a 3.5V drop for them) or so ?

I am seriously thinking of buying a 1366x768 11.6" display cause I can't find a12.1 one at all... There are PCs built with them but no luck to find one spare on the net... Do you have secret website to find them ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 06, 2010, 07:10:55 PM
The voltage and amperage requirements depends on many factors.   

The difficult part if to find the right voltage because for the amperage, you can just start with a high value (too high won't hurt, just more heat from the power supply).

Factors to consider:  The led component itself and the led arrangement (you are powering many leds) -- the resistors values (if any!).  Also, sometimes, the power is "pulsed" at a certain frequency (exact frequency does not really matter, but the ON/OFF pulsing ratio does -- this is called the "duty cycle" and is expressed in percentage -- 100% means always on, 75% means ON 3/4 of the time) to save on power consumption and heat.

If you have access to a working LCD, then you can measure the voltage while powered on with a voltmeter.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on January 10, 2010, 02:11:12 PM
Hi, Thank you Bernard.

I've experienced trouble to Log in with my name "Gwenouille". In fact it was absolutely impossible. I ve tried re-sending the password, re-sending the activation code, etc... No way. So I've opened a new account and GwenLP=Gwenouille.

I have also sent 2 mails to AgilentPixels to ask them about compatibility between their Controllers and the 1366x768 11.6" boards, but no response from them at all... It's been 2 weeks now, that 's disappointing and not much like making me do business with them...



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: cellofaan on January 10, 2010, 04:06:54 PM
I had the same problem. Some accounts got lost. You could reregister with your original accountname.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 11, 2010, 02:50:38 AM
for agilent pixel -- have you tried emailing the guy directly?  his email is on a few thread posts.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on January 11, 2010, 12:57:14 PM
Well no, I haven't... I'd think the official way over the "contact" mail of his sit ewould be better.
Do you think it's allright to use his private adress ?
If you tell me the chap is nice and won't be furious if I contact him on his own mailbox then I will try that, yes.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 12, 2010, 08:51:21 PM
The chap is [very] nice and won't be furious if [you] contact him on his own mailbox [unless you spam him of course]. :)

Actually, I never got any answer from posting from his site, only from his hotmail account.



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 08, 2010, 02:37:58 PM
OK folks, this is the rebirth of a topic !

I haven't been there for quite a while, too much to do. But I haven't given up the will to make a build myself...

I find it hard to know what screen to choose for my intuos 3 A5 wide.
I wanted a nice 11.6 1366x768 LED display. That would fit very nicely. But then I need the part to drive the VGA/DVI signal, and the part to power the LEDS. I have no idea where to find these...

So I thought I could use this (http://yhst-75462742706392.stores.yahoo.net/lcdcokitfor11.html)
It is meant to be use with that (http://cgi.ebay.fr/LAPTOP-PHILIPS-X61-LCD-SCREEN-LTN106W2-L01-30PIN-10-6-/310180001181?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Computing_LaptopAccess_RL&hash=item48382b359d) screen.

Upside:
  • This is a nearly-sure fit.
  • The screen comes in a matte finish (Yes!)

Downside:
  • 10.6'' instead of 11.6''
  • 1280 instead of 1366 wide pixels
  • 1CCFL, not LED

Do you think this is a good option ?
Has anyone ever tried it ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 04:00:02 PM
About the fitting size -- Make sure you do the math to compute the exact width and height to see if it fits on both sides.

To drive LED:  yeah -- it is more difficult to find anything about led-based backlights -- other then buying a new monitor $$$. 

Somebody just finished a 4x6 build  http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1672.0 if that can be of interest to you.

The 11.6 display -- where did you see this again?  You mentionned that you ask agilent pixels about  "their Controllers and the 1366x768 11.6" boards" -- Did you had some sort of model number for the "1366x768 11.6" boards"?  Because just saying "1266x768 11.6" refers to nothing in particular.  It is like asking, will this roof-box fit on my blue car with 4 wheels and 5 doors?  ;D


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 08, 2010, 06:51:18 PM
Absolutely no problems with a 10.6'' display: in fact, even a 12.1'' would fit in if it is the 16/9 ratio type.

I wish I could use a led display: the screen itself is easy to find, but the inverter thing (is it still called an inverter for LEDS ? I very much doubt it: they work from DC) kinds of discourages me...

About the 11.6'' displays from a few months ago: well,11.6'' displays of 1366x768 are perfect for this tablet. The 16/9 ratio is more or less that of the tablet.
I gave up with these for several reasons:
_ I got no answer from agilentpixels, and I am not the nasty "come back until you get what you want" type of customer. No answer ? OK. Over.
_It is also near to impossible (well I didn't manage it anyway) to find such a screen with a matte finish. They all come in glossy flavours.

This LVDS controller thing is also very frightening... Finding the right one for the right screen, having it prepared, finding the correct inverters for your CCFL, the right ribbon cables, etc... I didn't have enough time for this...

If I knew what LVDS to buy and what was needed tyo drive the leds, I would rather go for a 1366x768 display, believe me... But it seems too complicated to me.


That is why I contemplate buying this set from tabletmod.com. I think it will do a nice job.
Maybe I could get some feedback here concerning it ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 11:51:10 PM
Sorry to ask again but:  That "1366x768 LED display" you keep referring to -- which one is it?  Do you have a model number or an hyperlink to it?

Yes, LEDs does not require an inverter. But still require a driver circuit (which, in certain cases, could be very simple to build -- but you need the LED specification -- for which a datasheet will kindly provide us).  But no model number, no datasheet.

I have no experience with tabletmod.com (DonShole's site) in general -- the guy seems to be a nice and honest guy. That is all I know!  :)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 09, 2010, 11:37:19 AM
Well, I haven't bought any 11.6 1366x768 LCD, but it could be one of these for instance:

AU B116XW02 V.0
Samsung LTN116AT01

But buying one of these implies finding this driver circuit for the LEDs, and a compatible DVI input thing... whereas the above-mentionned kit makes it easy...


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 09, 2010, 03:35:17 PM
I understand, I am just looking at various options in parallel.  ;D


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 10, 2010, 12:58:01 AM
There is also this that comes into consideration:
http://yhst-75462742706392.stores.yahoo.net/lcdpalcdcoki.html

But 1280x768 seems too low for a 12.1''. There are 1440x900 that size !

And that is too expensive...

Unless I find some way to get an 11.6'' 1366x768 LED properly controlable by a kit, I'll try that kit of theirs with the 10.6 1280x768 matte screen. I mailed them for some info, but no response so far.

And it won't be that soon: my car needs major surgery...


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 10, 2010, 02:20:53 AM
Actually, thinking about it, 768 lines for a 11.6 lines is not that bad!   Nowadays 15 inches (widescreen HD) are ... 768 lines --- most of the brand new laptops at futureshop are HD!  A few are HD+ (900 lines) and the Full HD 15 inches (1080 lines) are quite rare to find.

If you want to compare apples with apples, compare the "DPI" (or PPI)  (Dot per inches or Pixel per inches).  The easiest way is to find the number of pixel in diagonal and divide by the size in inches.  So for 1280x768 at 12.1" == SQRT(1280*1280 + 768*768) = 1492.72 / 12.1 = 123 dpi
1280x768 at 11.6" ==                                          = 1492.72 / 11.6 = 129 dpi
1440x900 at 12.1 ==                                           = 1698,12 / 12.1 = 140 dpi (!)

But of course 768 lines even if it is a high DPI, is still 768 lines!

Have you looked at this site?  A member recently ordered a LCD for like 38$ !

http://pchub.com


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 10, 2010, 03:12:38 AM
...and look for LVDS drivers here: http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:lvdsvendors


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 10, 2010, 11:38:59 PM
Thanks for the links Bernard ! Do you live somewhere on this forum ? It seems you are active in every topic !

About the dpi: yes, that is a bit of a concern: I'd like a nice resolution, really. My eyesight is darn good, and I hate to see the pixels on my main monitor...
That little 10.6 1280x768 can boast about a nice 10 dpi too, if i do the calculation you do. That is fine.

On the other hand, that is really small, and it doesn't use much of the wacom space... a 12.1 would do much better, the nice 42T0480 with its 1440x900 resolution would be mesmerizing but it has 2 problems:
  • It is LED backlit: where on earth do you find the inverter boards for that ???
  • It is too expensive: at least 250£

I have printed three mock-up pictures of paint.net at 1280x768 10.6'', 1366x768 11.6'' and 1366x768 12.1''.
10.6'' is quite small really... I don't know what to do !!!

On another note: If I were to use the original wacom casing (I want the control buttons), I'd have to protect the screen somehow. I mean, you can't draw on a LCD monitor directly I guess... Would droping a glass rectangle into the screen frame do (if the edges are softened ) ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 11, 2010, 02:04:43 AM
I almost have my own topic where I answer myself !   ;D  hehe

BTW, I just exchanged an email with NJYTouch people -- they were very responsive (second day response) -- and they responded with a big email to all my questions. They told me they have a board to drive TTL LCDs. (smaller LCDs tend to be TTLs).  I asked if they have a solution to drive LEDs in a second round question (not yet answered -- time zone difference, they are based in China).

I also asked if I can publish their email on the wiki (no answer yet on that) -- but you can always uses ebay's "ask seller a question" (which is what I did).  Send them your question about driving specific LCD Panels and maybe ask away about finding what you want.  This is not a single guy like agilent pixel, it is a company, and they seem to care.  Hey! You have nothing to loose!

B.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 11, 2010, 02:09:09 AM
You can put almost anything you like in front to protect. (just not metal -- duh).  Use your judgment there.  There have been lot of talk about this very topic on the forum.  Stuff like using Acrylic or glass like you mentionned.  Glass will break if dropped of course.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on August 11, 2010, 06:13:36 PM
Got an answer from njytouch about driving led-based LCDs:

Quote from: Christina at njytouch
We also try our controller boards on some LED panels, and it works. But we should get the panel at first and then do the rewiring and testing to get it work. There is no standard LED cable or LED boards, we have to make change based on different LCD panels. So get the panel for testing is the most important thing;

In other words, depending on the LCD, at worst, you might have to ship them your LCD Panel for them to properly interface it. In anyway, email them your LCD boards models that you have in mind and they tell you what it takes. You can then take a decision if it is too costly or whatever. You could even ask them if they know of an alternative LCD Panel source.

I now have the permission to divulge their email to contact them. I've put the details on the wiki page http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:lvdsvendors


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 14, 2010, 10:33:05 PM
OK, I've done some mock-ups prints for some screens resolutions and size.
I mean, I have made screen captures at that resolutions and printed them to the correct size.

By laying them over the wacom, I can get a feel of how it would look like.

My verdict:

10.6 1280x768
     Definitely a bit small: I get the feeling that too much of the Wacom is lost. But the quality of the image should be great (140dpi). 983,040 pixels
11.6 1366x768
     Just about OK: on the small size, but it seems to be the correct ratio (6/11=0.5454  768/1366=0.56). Correct definition (129dpi). 1,049,088 pixels
12.1 1366x768
     Same ratio than above, but the dpi value is lower (123). I would rather go for the above. 1,049,088 pixels too
12.1 1440x900
     Now that's a winner ! I mean, definition is marvelous (140dpi), it shows 1,296,000 pixels, that is about 23% more than the 2 above.
     The ratio is not perfect (6/11=0.5454  900/1440=0.625), but it is a near perfect fit in height (actually, probably about 4 mm too high, but 2mm too much at top and bottom are probably ok).

The problem is the price of the latest panel.  :'(


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 16, 2010, 11:51:21 AM
For those in the future that might want to build something around the Wacom Intuos 3 A5 wide (witch I love, really...), you may want to know the following:
It is sometimes refered to as 6x11, but it ISN'T that long.
In fact the grey coating on witch (I love that typo!) you draw might be 11 inches long, but not the sensor.

The dimensions of the sensor are :
271.0mm (10.67'')
158.7mm (6.25'')

diagonal:314.04 (12.36'')

Its ratio is 271.0/158.7=1.71, so that is somewhere inbetween 16:9 and 16:10



On another note, I discovered the existence of 13.1'' 1600x900 panels !!!
That is mighty impressive.
that gives them the following dimensions:
width:11.42'' (290mm)
heigth:6.42'' (163mm)

So they are really too big (1cm too much on each side and 2mm at top/bottom), and not all the screen could be maped.

Talking about that, I discovered Powerstrip: that allows one to add custom resolutions. I was able to create a 1920x600 resolution under windows, which (OK serious now) is nice in certain games !
Maybe that could be used by those who have to use too big a screen and can't map all its surface with the sensor: Creating a custom resolution (positionned in the middle of the monitor) would force Windows (in my case) to discard these un-mapped pixels on the edges, effectively allowing the wacom to be mapped to all the active area...

To be precised...


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on September 01, 2010, 09:34:17 AM
I recorded all the active area info I could find here:

http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:tablets#intuos3_series   

I have 158.8 instead of 158.7 -- which one is the good number?

-------------

Very interesting that "powerstrip" utility  -- can you adjust the frequency of the signals that is sent to the LCD Panel?  Effectively changing frequencies (and potentially avoiding/reducing jitter)?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on September 01, 2010, 09:40:02 PM
interesting... I think that 10th of a millimeter won't change anything...

About Powerstrip: yes, you can alter the frequencies. I haven't played with them yet, only used the resolution side of it.
It may be worth investigating for those of us using windows.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on September 02, 2010, 06:47:31 AM
ok -- essentially with powerstrip you are able to allocate "unused space"? Like black bars on a Widescreen TV looking at a SD signal?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: tirshea on September 02, 2010, 09:48:15 AM
After some research on powerstip :

- It is edited by EnTech (Taiwan)
- Curent Version: 3.87, Released: 1 November 2009
- It works with multi monitors, you can activate/desactivate multi monitors with a click
- I found this line in the description :
   "[allows] hardware control over refresh rates - with floating point precision - ensure you're never stuck at just 60Hz no matter what OS you're using."
   This one looks promising, the screenshot shows both V and H refresh rates with 00.000 accuracy.
- It says you can adjust the number of used pixels per lines and the number of used lines with real-time preview (awesome ?)

Since I have some contacts in the video business, I'll try to find someone who uses that software to get more feedback.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on September 02, 2010, 10:17:38 AM
To Bernard:

Well, here is what I did on my PC:

I wanted to play a game (COlin McRae Dirt2 Demo) with a funny panoramical resolution on my 24'' monitor.
In fact my graphic card can't handle the game nicely at 1920x1200, but it is fine at 1280x1024. So I thought, why not try something like 1920x768 ?

I downloaded Powerstrip,went throught the process of adding a custom resolution, and Tadaaaaaaaaaa ! , after a restart the 1920x768 resolution is available in my ATI tray icon for resolutions.
Switching to that resolution adds 2 big black bars on top and bottom of my screen ((1200-768)/2 pixels I guess). Absolutely rubbish as a windows desktop but very nice in car games.
The nice thing is that I keep the fine resolution (no pixel stretching of course, so the picture is as sharp as possible), and the graphic card can handle it nicely.

HOWEVER

I tried the same for my 2nd monitor, a 1280x1024 older 19'' I created a custom 1280x600 resolution. But that time, no bars on top and bottom. The picture is stretched instead. No good.

I suspect the way I connect the monitor is responsible: I use DVI in the 1st case, VGA on the 2nd.

If I find the time I may post some screen captures.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: cellofaan on September 02, 2010, 01:00:05 PM
That's definitely caused by the VGA cable. NVidia drivers also supply an option for custom resolutions, but the option stays greyed out for VGA-connected monitor.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on September 04, 2010, 07:22:34 AM
That DVI/VGA difference is interesting. That could drive a purchase decision of a LVDS controller (DVI vs. VGA connection).

Does this powerstrip thingy is actually replacing the video card driver completely? I would be afraid of bugs and performance(?).


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on September 04, 2010, 01:25:38 PM
Absolutely not.

In my case (and once again I haven't used much of it: only played with custom resolutions), no problems at all: I created 3 custom resolutions (1280x600; 1920x600 and 1920x768), just for the fun of it and for reasons given above and that worked fine.
I now have these 3 choices in my ATI tray and in XP's display parameters control panel.

I will post pictures later.

I totally agree with you: this will condition the LVDS controller to be a DVI one, no doubt.

Something I'd like to try today: so far I've played with panoramical setups, adding empty black bars on top and bottom. I'd like to do the opposite, say create a 1200x1200 resolution on my 1920x1200 monitor to see if I get vertical black lost space properly.

And even a compound test, so only a small rectangle inside the full 1920x1200 is used (for instance 1280x1024). So far these smaller resolutions always bring some artificial stretching to fill up the whole screen instead of black lost space.

Stay tuned !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on February 26, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
Hi !

It's been a while now, and I haven't made any progress !
The main reason is that I'd like to see some feedback from people using LED lit panels. It doesn't seem to be common.

Do you know of a LVDS controller that would happily drive a LED backlit panel ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on February 26, 2011, 12:51:48 AM
welcome back! 

NJYTouch were the ones that were closest to drive leds -- try sending them an email with your panel or dilemma, whatever.  Maybe they have more options now.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on February 26, 2011, 03:44:48 PM
Thanks Bernard, I 've just sent them an e-mail…
A nice DVI controller able to drive an LED backlit panel would make make so happy !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on February 28, 2011, 10:33:45 AM
I just discovered that:
http://www.ergpower.com/SFLED-rails.html

That might be useful for those wanting to convert CCFL to LEDs


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 04, 2011, 06:22:43 PM
OK…
 I sent an e-mail with some references of LED LCDs and their specsheets. That is what i got in return:

Quote
After checking the datasheet, I’m sorry to say that at present we may can’t help with it because we don’t have such a LCD panel for testing. So it is hard to say.
 
Best regards,

Disappointing…
Man, there HAS to be a way to drive these LED LCDs…


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 04, 2011, 11:42:58 PM
I believe they have all the knowledge and ability to do it -- but since they do not have the device in their hands they cannot certify that it will work (read: it will not work when shipped to you). Problem with LEDs is that there is no real standard for LEDs backlight like there are for CCFLs -- at least not yet.

I would assume as there is more and more LED-based panels, it will standardize over time.

You could ask them *which* LED-based LCD Panels they can drive [that would fit your needs].

There is always a way to drive those leds:  the DIY way - roll-you-own circuit -- these are just LEDs afterall!!

Most LVDS controller have a 12V DC output dedicated to drive the backlight (not sure how much mAmps but probably well enough to drive LEDs). So the idea here would be to take that 12v DC output and transform it to whatever the specification says and voilà.  OK easier said than done.  Can you solder?  Maybe I should start a DIY general-purpose-LED-driving-for-LCD-Panels project..?

Can you forward us the LED LCDs specs you are talking about?  Let me have a look.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 05, 2011, 12:39:00 PM
Are you always so optimistic Bernard ?  ;)

Quote
I would assume as there is more and more LED-based panels, it will standardize over time.
Yes, it is what I was hoping as well. After all it's been 14 months since I disovered this forum. I thought things were moving quicker than that towards leds. Now all high-end TVs and Monitors are LED backlit.

Here are the 2 LED LCDs specs I've sent them:
http://glp.lescigales.org/divers/LP116WH2-TLC1.pdf
http://glp.lescigales.org/divers/B116XW02_V0.pdf

Quote
Most LVDS controller have a 12V DC output dedicated to drive the backlight (not sure how much mAmps but probably well enough to drive LEDs). So the idea here would be to take that 12v DC output and transform it to whatever the specification says and voilà.
Mmhh That's definitely a good thing.
I have some electronics background: not very solid but I have made some small things in the past (self-designed intercom-thing between my workshop and home). As for soldering, it's ok, I can, but my iron is crap…

Have you looked at the link in my 28th of february post ? They seem to have all sorts of LEDs drivers: I guess there is a way to connect one to a standard controller in lieu of the CCFL inverter.
I'd love to be able to play with luminosity via the LVDS controller's interface.

I think LEDs draw about 15-25mA. Maybe High-bright LEDs are different ? I am not sure if 12V is OK or not…


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 06, 2011, 12:00:52 AM
Quote
Are you always so optimistic Bernard ?  ;)

:) We can say that.

Quote
Have you looked at the link in my 28th of february post ?
  That page was about led rails -- but now I see that this same site also sells stand-alone led drivers for various panels -- I see they sell overstock items -- but can you actually order 1 led-driver unit - and for how much??

I was reading the first PDF (LG LP116WH2) you gave out and I think it has the following LED spec:

It has 3 "strings" of LEDs each requiring anything between 5V to 12V DC input at 22mA (so a total 66mA if wired together).  *** elsewhere it talks about 32Volts -- not sure which one to trust!!?
The brightness is controlled by a PWM input (frequency can be anywhere from 1Khz to 10Khz) and the duty cycle controls the brightness -- 12.5% lowest brightness, 100% full brightness (if you apply a steady signal like connecting the pin to a signal VCC (3.3v) that is equivalent to a 100% duty cycle).  I do not know if LCD controllers all have the brightness PWM signal -- but this is a pretty standard way to control the brightness even for a CCFL driver so there is a good chance there.
Somewhere it says the LED should be powered only after the LCD matrix is up and running (200ms after to be precise). -- but I suspect it will work fine anyway -- it should be to avoid visual glitches on power up I assume.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 06, 2011, 12:19:10 AM
I checked the second datasheet (B116XW02_V0) and this one has no contradictory specs:
[attachment=1]

Input voltage 12v (but works from 6v to 21v).
Same type of PWM stuff for the brightness at 1kHz (but can work up to 10kHz).
Signal voltage can work off 3.3v and 5v boards (which is cool) - (LED enable pin and PWM).

Elsewhere it mentions the backlight consumes 2.76 Watt at 12v -- that sounds like 230mA to me. (2.76W/12V = 0.23A)

You can't get simpler I think -- these are perfect specs.

There is a good chance a LVDS driver monitor kit meant to work with an external CCFL inverter (non-integrated) could directly drive this backlight.

For boards that have an integrated inverter, I would try to disable the inverter circuitry to save on power and tap on the required signals to drive the backlight.  Sounds like fun! hehe :)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Kareltje on March 06, 2011, 04:40:38 PM
I had a small look into the controllers of nyjtouch.

Since I have a programmer or them this is relatively easy for me.
I think you can just drive it with their programmer and then you would need to add some PWM circuit for the leds.
Wouldn't  work out of the box but it is certainly possible



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They support a lot of screens with the same resolution as yours, I'm  almost certain that at least one of them would work for you.
You would still need to fabricate something for the backlight though.

Hope this helps a bit
Karel



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 07, 2011, 12:56:10 AM
Do these boards have the CCFL inverter shipped on a separate PCB?  How do you know there is no PWM?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Kareltje on March 07, 2011, 11:15:09 AM
Do these boards have the CCFL inverter shipped on a separate PCB?  How do you know there is no PWM?

Yes the boards come with a separate CCFL inverter board. Of course it is possible to do PWM with the controller itself.
The annoying thing is that without a compiler / assembler and some decent manual / datasheet it is near impossible to do it.
The "easiest" way would be to use to controller to driver the LVDS  and clock signals and have a small AVR or PIC do the PWM.

Unless you would be able to find a matching LED driver board that could connect to the NYJTOUCH controller board....



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 07, 2011, 12:11:06 PM
well...  I am not talking about re-compiling a new firmware.  :P What I am getting at is that since a PWM is already a popular standard to control the brightness through CCFL inverter boards -- maybe the PWM signal is already present (and re-usable for the LED driver board)?  What connections do you have going into that board?  Any markings on any of the PCBs or manuals?

What I am discovering here is that more and more LED-based LCD Panels already includes a LED driver board. This is not just the "bare LEDs" but some sort of integrated "driver". But, for it to work, you still have to feed the bare minimum: 1) some power, 2) the "Enable" signal and 3) that famous "PWM-based brightness". All standard stuff that you already find on quite a few CCFL inverter boards. Hopefully on the NYJTouch ones too, hence my question. :)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 07, 2011, 12:37:24 PM
Seems like we've got a nice momentum going on here !
Thanks for your input !

Just to make things clear: I suppose PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation ?
But can you tell me what AVR or PIC mean ?

Quote
Unless you would be able to find a matching LED driver board that could connect to the NYJTOUCH controller board....
I have asked ergpower.com if they think their LED drivers could be compatible with NJY touch LVDS drivers. That would facilitate things quite a lot.

Quote
I'm  almost certain that at least one of them would work for you.
So am I: I suspect that the LCD matrix is more or less the same: only the backlight is modified for LEDs.

Kareltje: can you tell me what model of LVDS controller you'vr got from NYJTouch ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 07, 2011, 12:56:49 PM
yes PWM is for Pulse Width Modulation -- a somewhat simple signal that simply goes ON and OFF and ON and OFF... etc. Going ON then OFF is 1 cycle. And the time spent ON (in % of the cycle) is called the "duty cycle".  So 50% duty cycle would mean 50% of the time ON and 50% of the time OFF.  100% means always ON (0% time spent OFF).  The time it take to do one cycle is called the period (in seconds) and the inverse of the period is the frequency (in Hertz) (freq = 1/period).

A PIC or AVR are two very popular 'microcontroller' -- a low-cost system-on-a-chip -- those are often used in DIY projects. But you still have to build the PCB to put the chip on and all the stuff around it to support it. There are already-made boards but rarely under 30$US. And you most likely still have to solder a few things and program it yourself.  I am currently working on a project for bongofish using an inexpensive AVR-based board (called the Teensy) which is 18$US+5$ shipping.  I know this can very easily generate any PWM you like. The issue here  is not generating the PWM, but how to "control the brightness" -- It would not be connected to the monitor kit -- so it won't work with the monitor kit OSD (on-screen-display menu) or maybe even the computer itself.  I guess that with a separate board like this you would install two "buttons" (+) and (-) to control the brightness "separately". That would work (I can help doing the software for a Teensy since I have a few of those here).


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: Kareltje on March 07, 2011, 01:07:54 PM
I have a 5451 controller from them.
I would have to reverse engineer some of the PCB and figure out what exactly is driving the CCFL and how it works.

I think the controller itself is a RTD2120L which does have two dedicated PWM channels. I'll try and figure out how it works but don't really have time so don't expect me to come back with info before the weekend on this.




Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 07, 2011, 01:25:20 PM
@ Bernard: controlling the brightness without or within the OSD isn't important at all I think ! In fact, 2 little buttons somewhere on the wacom (alongside a ON/OFF switch for the monitor) would be perfect.
Build the PCB is fine: I did it once (with that marker and FeCl3) and loved it !

@ Kareltje: haha, even if you came back with the info just before the summer it would be fine : this is spare time !

So, it seems that :
  • a NYJTouch controller should be OK to drive the signal of the LED matrix
  • there is a possibility that these drivers can control a LED driver like those from ERGpower
  • if the last isn't true, it is fairly easy to build an external PWM driver

I'll have a look at this Teensy thingy !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 07, 2011, 03:12:16 PM
One piece of advice here: Watch out! -- building this yourself might actually become fun...  8)  -- consider yourself warned.

OOoh -- a quick google of "RTD2120L" revealed that it is a 8051 processor!  I did a 8051 project in the past. (8051 is an old Intel 8 bit cpu -- was ultra popular in the industry in the past and in the "DIY" scene (before the DIY acronym existed probably!) -- so people/industry are still doing stuff with it -- or variants -- even the Teensy-guy Paul sells stuff about it). I hated the architecture every bit -- but I had quite some fun. :)  (was to interface a RC-helicopter receiver to connect it to a serial port on a PC to make an emulator to practice without breaking those darn blades each time it would fall on the ground). -- memories, memories.   Well that project actually worked fine, but I am still a very poor RC-Heli pilot.  :'(   I also see that it mentions 3 PWM channels in the spec but lists 6 of them in the pinouts. Anyway.  It all depends how this chip is actually wired on the "NYJTouch" board. 


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 07, 2011, 09:44:05 PM
Some news: I got an answer from ergpower.com. It reads so:
Quote
I believe our SFDMB3792F would be a good match for your displays. I've
attached the datasheet for your review.

Here is a link to this datasheet:
http://glp.lescigales.org/divers/wacom/SFDMB3792F.pdf

It is to be noted that they have 2 very similar drivers: the SFDM series and the SFDMD series, THE LATER APPARENTLY HAVING ITS OWN PWM SYSTEM.
Here are 2 general presentation specs for these.
http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/Smart%20Force%20SFDMD%20Driver.pdf
http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/Smart%20Force%20SFDM%20Driver.pdf

But there is a major drawback to these neat little (really small) solutions: price ! Apparently around 99$  >:(


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 07, 2011, 09:57:19 PM
that datasheet (SFDMB3792F.pdf) is indeed a LED Driver -- if you look carefully the "inputs" include an "Enable", a "PWM" and power of course (Vin + Gnd).  The Output has 3 Anode+Cathode pair (sounds good for 3 "direct" LED strings -- that is for LEDs without LED drivers obviously).

The B116XW02_V0 definitely already includes that circuit. See? It has the exact same inputs!  8)  Maybe the first LCD Panel is different (spec sheet not clear to me).

I mean, in the case that this circuit was not included in the LCD Panel -- That does not solve your problem -- you are still stuck with how to connect these inputs from -- you need to feed a PWM into this led driver to control the brightness!   Back to Square One. :) hehe

If you have access to a LCD that already includes the LED Driver circuit -- I would not spend 100$US on buying the pieces separately...


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 07, 2011, 10:11:33 PM
For the other variants of their stuff, the one with the "internal PWM 255:1" not sure what it means -- maybe you can control the brigthness in some other way without feeding a PWM but feeding something else(?)  I have seen CCFL inverters with a "dim" pin which is essentially a voltage within a range. for example,  let's say the range is 0.5v to 6.0v   The voltage you apply will control the brightness. (0.5v dark -- 6.0v max brightness). 

little bit of digging:
glp.lescigales.org -- c'est ton site ca?  <- notice the language is not english. -- everything here tells me you are french (and french-speaking) :)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 07, 2011, 10:36:03 PM
Yesyes it is a LED driver of course !
But you say the B116XW02_V0 already includes a LED driver ? OKOK
So in fact, if it has an inbuild LED driver, all that fails is some way to control dimming via PWM, is that right ? In witch (again, I love that typo) case we could consider this Teensy thing.
Nooooooooow it all makes sense !
Absolutely.
Of course having no PWM means 100 brightness, which (OK let's be reasonable) is kind of stupid…

Quote
For the other variants of their stuff, the one with the "internal PWM 255:1" not sure what it means -- maybe you can control the brigthness in some other way without feeding a PWM but feeding something else(?)  I have seen CCFL inverters with a "dim" pin which is essentially a voltage within a range. for example,  let's say the range is 0.5v to 6.0v   The voltage you apply will control the brightness. (0.5v dark -- 6.0v max brightness).
Yes, this is how I read it too: dimming controled by applied voltage potential on pin 7. If you look at graph 1 (page 5 of this pdf), 1v is 100% brightness, 5v is minimum, in that case 1/255th (0.4%).

And yes, nice guess, I am french, but I suggest, as respect for the rest of this nice community, that we carry on using english.
glp.lescigales.org is not really my site. In fact i use it as an upload platform for my blender scripts, other files, etc…
My site is this one : www.contrepoint-records.com But it has nothing to do with Blender nor DIY nor Violin-making !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on March 09, 2011, 11:46:03 PM
I think this is turning out to be rather addicting. I can't stop googling things out and trying to learn some electronics.

There are apparently quite a few other possibilities to build my own PWM generating device. Analog and digital ones. I love that idea !

Something I noticed: There are apparently 30 and 40 pins LVDS connectors. The panels I like (that B116XW02 for instance) happen to come with the 40 pins flavour. But it seems that the controllers from NJYTouch control panels that have the 30 pins type. That worries me…

I will be on holidays from friday to the next sunday. And right after that I'll be in quite a rush at work, so I won't make much progress …

BTW: does someone know them :
http://www.fvdnow.com/index.html  ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on March 11, 2011, 04:23:42 PM
40 pins? That is a lot of pins/lines -- normally we see 20pins or 30pins. Oh but wait, this board as the LED stuff and I think the extra lines are for driving the LEDs, no?  Yes, a different connector is a source of anxiety indeed.  These are really small beasts and difficult to "construct by hand".

I do not know fvdnow -- I suspect they are not cheap.  But they (as many others) could be a source of help.  You loose nothing (other than a bit of time) by asking.



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on September 17, 2011, 01:42:13 PM
Hi every one !

I can't believe i still haven't found the time to really make my own build !

Because i don't want to mess up with complicated LVDS drivers and stuff, I thought i would find some "all-in -one" packages with a display and its controller.
Here are some:

http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/5754212/12_1_16_9_LCD_Monitor_with_VGA_and_Composite_Input_Optional_HDMI_DVI_input.html#normal_img

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/347730983/12inch_VGA_touchscreen_monitor_12inch_LCD.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/361124674-Free-shipping-12inch-VGA-touchscreen-monitor-12inch-LCD-CCTV-Monitor-12-wide-screen-PC-monitor-wholesalers.html

http://www.tradevv.com/chinasuppliers/carpclcd_p_d057e/china-12-1inch-TFT-LCD-industrial-SKD-modules-open-frame-touchscreen-HDMI-DVI.html


Do you think this could be a good idea ?
Has someone got some experience with such products ?
I tend to think that the quality of the display will be a bit poor (viewing angles, etc), but the fact that some are meant to be touch-operated makes me think they would be sturdier…


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on September 22, 2011, 12:23:45 AM
The more i think about it, the better i like this solution: you buy a kit with a DVI input and a panel. The pair is matched, so not much room for incompatibilities.
Some panels are even LED panels: i suspect these are less prone to jitter, due to the lack of high voltage currents for a CCFL.
Some have a resistive touch panel built-in: while that won't be usefull, i guess they are sturdier !

Bad news though: impossible to find a 12.1" 1366×768 panel, the perfect fit for a wide intuos A5…



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on January 04, 2012, 11:02:58 PM
So the master entered the room, turned to the computer and told the forgotten topic: "Wake-up!"
And the forgotten topic got 1st page once again !


How nice...

More seriously, I could' find the kit i was mentionning in the previous post.
So i go back to the "separate sources" way.

I've found some nice LED backlit panels for my A5 wide.
Annnnnnnnnnd i have found that:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270872905933

Now there is something i don't get: the panel that is meant to be driven by that board is backlit. But do you see some kind of "inverter" (I man the PWM thing for the LED, i know it isn' called inverter) for the LEDs ?

And how do you control the monitor ? There are no buttons for brightness, etc...
The bad thing is ...VGA only.


Another thing:
The panel in question, the LP156WH2-TLA1, is a very close cousin to the ones i have in sight for my build: the LP116WH2 TLC1 or the LP125WH2SLB1. They share the same resolution, brand, and their specs are extremely similar. I join a link to the specs for you:
http://www.contrepoint-records.com/ressources/divers/LP116WH2-TLC1.pdf
http://www.contrepoint-records.com/ressources/divers/LP156WH2-TLA1.pdf
http://www.contrepoint-records.com/ressources/divers/LP125WH2 SLB1.pdf

I have asked njytouch if they thought that would work and what they told me was:
Hi,
 
Thank you for your emails!
 
I am afraid we couldn't help you. Sorry!
 
Regards,
Maria

That was quite disapointing, as i sent them the specs too...

Do you think i should try ? They look so close !


 


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 05, 2012, 01:48:54 AM
Maria is not helping very much it seems :(  But where's Christina?

That LED controller can drive the LED backlight power and signals through the same 40pin connector (pin 31 to pin 40). It thus has an integrated LED (PWM) driver.
The eBay ad mentions a keypad -- so there you go for the OSD menu "buttons".

Ok, I opened the datasheet (LP116WH2-TLC1.pdf).

Let's check the specs. 

- Both are 40 pins, including the backlight on pin 31 to pin 40 and the signals appears to match too.
- The board is said to drive 1366x768 resolution - that matches the LCD resolution.
- no DVI connection - yup, that's a choice. in terms of quality it should be good, but if you do not have any VGA connection (or DVI that include analog signals to convert it using a simple DVI-VGA adapter).

I would go for it (personally).


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on January 06, 2012, 11:25:06 PM
Hi Bernard !

Do you know if Christina has a personnal e-mail ?
I would love to ask them if they could do the same, but with a DVI input...

About the keypad: yes, well spoted. I oversaw that...

I agree: the datasheets shout "go for it" ! I'll email them once more about that DVI stuff and then, if my finances allow it, I'll  take the risk !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 07, 2012, 12:33:33 AM
All the info we have (including what you are asking) is already in our wiki page: http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:lvdsvendors


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on January 10, 2012, 12:01:19 AM
Ohhh, thanks.

I have sent her a mail and the datasheets: very curious to see what she can do.

Now some interesting news: the panel I've set my eyes on is... an IPS panel. So the viewing angles will probably be very nice.
BUT there seems to be a problem: early versions of that panel suffer from ghosting, as seen in this thread:
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/Faint-Ghosting-on-X220-IPS-screen/td-p/435201/page/44
The panel in question is the LP125WH2 SLB1

In the meantime, I have stumbled upon another panel, the LP125WH2 SLB2 (notice the subtle difference).
Impossible to find any datasheet of that one... To me, the specs should be the same, the 2nd being some kind of altered version correcting the SLB1 problems... That's how i see the tiny naming difference (SLB2 instead of SLB1)

What do you think ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 10, 2012, 03:01:00 AM
yes, that's very possible indeed. I never saw that type of model number near the end "SLB1", but it does sound like that indeed. The "ghosting" may not be corrected though, it can be another bug fix, but the specs has good chances of working. Is it too expensive to take a risk?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on January 10, 2012, 09:04:49 AM
The SLB1 i can fin at about 100 € plus shipping. The SLB2 is marginally more expensive (15€)

Too bad i can't find any specs about that thing !

About the ghosting in the LP125WH2 SLB1: apparently, users of the Lenovo X220 (AFAIK the only laptop to use the panel) reported the problem, and panels manufactured after august 2011 are OK. So i could get away with a nice SLB1 after all, and avoid the risk altogether.
But that numbering really make me think that the SLB2 is a corrected version.

I'd love to stuck with one of the two because
  • They fit my A5 wide intuos 3 nicely
  • 1366 x 768 is not bad
  • LED backlit : less current at the edge, maybe less jitter ?
  • Matte surface and IPS


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on January 10, 2012, 02:58:22 PM
You might regret it not to spend that extra 15 euros. I would pick the SLB2 personally. Like you said, chances are the specs are the same.

Bonne chance !


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on April 02, 2012, 07:58:13 PM
An update !

Believe it or not: I haven't given up !

But it is impossible to find the panel i want.
The LP125WH2 SLB2 is not to be found anywhere.

Panel sellers have the very bad habit of selling "compatible panels". For instance, in my case, they sell the LP125WH2 TLB1 and LP125WH2 TLD1 under the same specs as the LP125WH2 SLB1 or SLB2
But the first two are TN, glossy panels while the last two are IPS, matte panels !

When i ask a specific vendor to make sure they ship a SLB1 or SLB2, they simply reply that they don't have any of these, ALTHOUGH THEY ARE LISTED ON THE NET. It is just that any buyer wanting a nice SLB2 (IPS, matte) will get some TLB1 (TN, glossy). Heck, they are compatible aren't they ?



Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on April 02, 2012, 08:09:58 PM
Hello again GwenLP. I can feel the steam pressure getting out...  :)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: jwkeiser on June 13, 2012, 03:44:39 AM
I'm glad i came across this thread...

I have recently begun thinking about starting another build (i originally started what i called the disastiq using a usb powered 7 inch monitor and my original bamboo -- needless to say i doomed it from the start with that name). So, while i own an 11x6 intuos 3, i wanted to get a bigger working area, so i wanted to use an intuos4 large with an lp154wu02 (beautiful 15.4 inch 1920x1200 panel). however, securing a large intuos4 was just too expensive, so i turned to try to get something going with my 11x6 intuos3.

anyway, i did some research on the panels you were talking about, most notably the lp125wh2 SLB2. I remember from my laptop shopping that the lenovo x220 tablet used a 12.5 inch ips panel, so that got the gears working in my head. i googled around, and found this: http://www.laptopscreen.com/English/screen-part-number/LP125WH2(SL)(B2)/ i know you can't trust the images they give you, but after some google image searching i was able to find a pic of the back of the panel with the correct model #, and it matches roughly what laptopscreen.com has for a picture, but i noticed that there is a lack of circuitry on the back, which would make it perfect to throw a digitizer behind it...

could this be a panel made FOR tablets? sure seems that way, as it's the recommended replacement screen for the x220 tablet. laptopscreen.com seems to have it for $70 USD, which is pretty good if you ask me, even then who knows if they actually have that panel in stock, the only other question is how to drive it. I have an email in to christina about this, so i'm anxiously awaiting her reply. I'm very tempted to go for it and try to hook it up to my broken down 10.1 inch netbook (that LED screen has the same 40-pin hookup).  Thoughts??


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on June 13, 2012, 03:08:30 PM
Quote
I'm very tempted to go for it and try to hook it up to my broken down 10.1 inch netbook (that LED screen has the same 40-pin hookup).

This will only work if the resolution (pixels) and the number of bits per channel (6 or 8) the same?  (IPS is often 8 bits, TN is mostly 6 bits unless there is some sort of temporal dithering to boost the number of bits). In terms of pinouts, it is pretty standard, there are some variations (LVDS one or 2 channels, 30 or 40 pins and driving the backlight LEDs portion).

A panel *without* circuitry?  Never seen this before. Sometimes the circuits are inside the panel (some panels have a metal case). But in this case (I am looking at the tiny picture) maybe the circuits are really all "outside" the panel. Like you are saying, maybe it was done like that to fit a tablet *OR* just to remove a few millimeters off the thickness of the screen.

70$ is a great price indeed.

Note that if you still wanted to match this against your intuos3, you might run into a slight issue: The intuos3 A5 Wide will not cover the entire area -  it is a weebit too small. According to the active area published by us http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:tablets#intuos3_series (271.0 mm by 158.8 -- lookup the intuos3 manual to be sure this info is good) and with the help of the Simtiq Planner (http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1984.0), it appears that you would need 12.2 inches or less.   With a 12.5 inches, you will not be able to reach 11 pixels on the left and right sides (but it would be ok on the top and bottom).


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: jwkeiser on June 13, 2012, 03:13:58 PM
So some more news, i created a support ticket on laptopscreen.com:

Jun 12, 2012 20:55:09
Joe wrote:
I am about to place an order for an LP125WH2(SL)(B2), and it says "compatible with p/n LP125WH2(SL)(B2)", does this mean the exact screen may not be available? I don't want to receive a lesser product if that particular one is not available. Please let me know if you have any panels that match EXACTLY this: LP125WH2(SL)(B2), and let me know how I can go about buying it. Thank you! Hope you have a great day.

- Joe


And here is the response:

Jun 12, 2012 22:42:21
Felix wrote:
Thank you for contacting our support team.
Please, note, that currently we ship the exact model # LP125WH2(SL)(B2).
http://www.laptopscreen.com/English/screen-part-number/LP125WH2(SL)(B2)/


I also received a response from Christina that said they didn't have that particular panel, but I could give it a shot with this controller:http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-controller-kit-LG-PHILIPS-LP133WH1-TL-B1-LED-display-Screen-Panel-LVDS-/270978896593?pt=US_Server_Boards&hash=item3f1799d2d1#ht_4704wt_1163 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-controller-kit-LG-PHILIPS-LP133WH1-TL-B1-LED-display-Screen-Panel-LVDS-/270978896593?pt=US_Server_Boards&hash=item3f1799d2d1#ht_4704wt_1163)
"unfortunately we never tried before. If you think its LVDS pinout is the same as LP133WH1(TL)(B1) LCD, you may take a try."

I'm a little unclear as to what she means by pinout, are there other factors involved other than the pin count/voltage, etc? (excuse my lack of knowledge in the area, i'm a software engineer, not an EE :-) )

Sorry for hijacking this thread GwenLP, but i figured we were in the same boat.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: bernard on June 13, 2012, 03:22:27 PM
pinout is the mapping of pins in the 40-pins connector. Yes, there is more than pinout.  For the voltage, this is pretty much standard, but there is more.

For driving the LEDs, this is less standard thus a bit more tricky.

You must now find the datasheet (PDFs) for both LCD panels and compare their specifications to see if they match. You must check:

- the pinout of course
- the number of LVDS channels (1 or 2) (this is implicit in the pinout, 2 channels means double the number of pins to drive the R/G/B)
- the native resolution of the LCD
- the number of bits per RGB channel (6 or 8)
- the type of connector (yes, there are variants) -- this is difficult to find, some LCD panels have variants with different connectors.

If unsure, post the links to both of the PDFs.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: jwkeiser on June 13, 2012, 03:59:05 PM
you're right about the active area bernard, there are a few unused mms of that grey cover sheet, but i'm willing to go without ~20 pixels, this won't be my primary monitor, it will be my third, and i'll only use it for drawing, so a few pixels here or there is trivial. (btw nice little piece of javascript with that simtiq planner)

so njytouch also has a controller for the exact panel you posted the specs for (lp156...), and the spec sheets match up almost perfectly (same bits/pin layout aside from some extra grounds for the ips panel) with the lp125wh2-slb1. Am i reading this correctly in that they SHOULD both work on the same controller?

EDIT: oops, didn't see your post just before mine, i've pasted the spec sheets that GwenLP originally posted:
http://www.contrepoint-records.com/ressources/divers/LP156WH2-TLA1.pdf -- njytouch has a controller for this exact panel.
http://www.contrepoint-records.com/ressources/divers/LP125WH2-SLB1.pdf

the connectors look slightly different, but the pin layout matches up.

ANOTHER EDIT: njytouch also sells a controller for the LP133WH1-TLB1, the specs for the TLA1 are here: http://www.avidia.com.tw/docs/product/LP133WH1-TLA1.pdf

they are identical to the LP156 panel in pretty much every significant way, except the controller for the 13.3 inch model comes with a dvi connection--figured that was worth mentioning.

great, now i'm re-addicted to this stuff.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: jwkeiser on June 16, 2012, 08:19:04 PM
heyo, so i ended up starting a build log -- http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=2155.0

i ended up buying an lp125wh2 slb2, it was $70+$15 shipping from laptopscreen.com (they sent the correct slb2 version!). it came and it only took two laptop tests to get it working! looks like one of these controllers will work:
Controller for the monitor that was in the laptop i successfully tested the lp125 on (vga only):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-controller-kit-LG-PHILIPS-LP156WH2-TLA1-LED-display-Screen-Panel-LVDS-/280898386006?pt=US_Server_Boards&hash=item4166d93856
This controller is for a monitor with identical specs to the one for the controller above -- has both dvi and vga:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-controller-kit-LG-PHILIPS-LP133WH1-TL-B1-LED-display-Screen-Panel-LVDS-/280901507992?pt=US_Server_Boards&hash=item416708db98#ht_4704wt_1163

i posed the question to Christina (would the lp133 controller drive the lp156), and if the answer is yes, i'll get the lp133 controller and should be good to go, check back in my build log for updates.


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on August 16, 2012, 10:08:04 AM
Waw, just as i discovered someone forked this thread and started a build, a seller contacted me to to say he has got a LP125WH2 SLB1 of recent manufacturing date handy !
But it's a bit expensive really: 100€ plus shipping !

Congratulations Jwkeiser ! I'll have a few questions to you in your build log thread OK ?


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: GwenLP on September 21, 2012, 10:54:18 PM
Here is the latest: I've contacted jwkeiser per mail, and asked him to confirm the versions of screen and controller he ordered. They are the exact models i thought of buying back then earlier this year.
I have found a pdf with the specs of that LP125WH2 SLB2, and it looks almost identical to that of the SLB1 and related monitors. So I've placed the order to laptopscreens.com.
Not that expensive, but i am in Europe, and the shipping is a bit more expensive... so i ended up paying about 60$ for the panel and 40 for the postage costs. It's OK.

I've sent a mail to Christina, asked if she could see that the controller fits the specs, add a power supply to the bundle. If she's OK, then i'll order that on monday (or even tomorrow if they are swift to respond).

So basically jwkeiser's build and mine are gonna be twins !
I hope i'll be able to do my part of the job, which is to fit the damn thing in the Wacom !
I'd like to avoid raising the height of the device too much...

To be continued... (probably early october, won't be home for a week)


Title: Re: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?
Post by: zsero on September 30, 2012, 09:40:48 PM
I've opened a thread about laptop LCD panels:
http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=2202.msg17173#msg17173