Bongofish

Screen Tablet malarky => Heyaaaalpppp => Topic started by: wolfsoull on August 07, 2010, 06:56:37 PM



Title: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 07, 2010, 06:56:37 PM
3 years ago i bought a used Cintiq 15x PL-550 with some problems in LCD for 60£, and now by see all this informations here i thinking if i can change the damage LCD monitor 15" for a new one 15" ?

here is some photos of the cintiq problem:

(http://www.wolfsoull.com/imagens_net/fault_wacom.jpg)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/imagens_net/fault_detail.jpg)


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 12:05:40 AM
That looks like a bad connection. (it does not mean it is easy to repair)

It might be possible to replace the LCD Panel without changing the electronics inside (LVDS driver, inverter) -- but you'd have to find either the exact same LCD Panel component or one with the same specifications.

Bonus: If you change the LCD and you snap in another LVDS driver, then you might be able to augment the resolution of the screen.

One thing for sure:  if you open your product, I will ask you to take a few measurements so we learn a bit more about Wacom Cintiqs.  ;D

If you give up on your Cintiq, then don't throw it away: someone will buy the Wacom portion of it.  ::)


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 12:47:49 AM
Could you take a snapshot of your display while displaying RGB color bars? (Pure black to R,G,B bars)?

Here's a picture to try out:

[attachment=1]

And here's another one:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/RGB_24bits_palette_color_test_chart.png)
(source  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RGB_24bits_palette_color_test_chart.png )


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 04:04:58 AM
From the LCD OSD (On Screen Display menu), if you change the brightness (and contrast) -- as in lowering then -- does some of the artifact go away?



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 08, 2010, 10:08:34 AM
That looks like a bad connection. (it does not mean it is easy to repair)

It might be possible to replace the LCD Panel without changing the electronics inside (LVDS driver, inverter) -- but you'd have to find either the exact same LCD Panel component or one with the same specifications.

Bonus: If you change the LCD and you snap in another LVDS driver, then you might be able to augment the resolution of the screen.

One thing for sure:  if you open your product, I will ask you to take a few measurements so we learn a bit more about Wacom Cintiqs.  ;D

If you give up on your Cintiq, then don't throw it away: someone will buy the Wacom portion of it.  ::)

my ideia is find a complete 15" LCD monitor with LVDS driver etc to change with the cintiq one, basically do the same process would have to do by join an lcd with a tablet, drawing on the Cintiq tablet and put on the new lcd and LVDS.

here are the tests with the bars:

(http://www.wolfsoull.com/imagens_net/s1.jpg)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/imagens_net/s2.jpg)


From the LCD OSD (On Screen Display menu), if you change the brightness (and contrast) -- as in lowering then -- does some of the artifact go away?



bernard : chanching the brightness and contrast to 0 solve the this problem! :) but the lcd is very dark when i find the 15" lcd i will trie change the monitor

i will open the cintiq and take some photos for you!


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 04:17:54 PM
Your thinking about changing the LCD is good and realistic.  But fixing the original LCD is also another effort I think is worth the try. 

I see the photos you taken:  Is it close to what you see in reality?  How would you qualify the issues you have?  Here I see:

- I see "vertical bars" everywhere -- but maybe this is just because we are looking at a photo?
- everything looks purple-ish
- the green channel seems the problematic one. In the middle of the bar, it sort fails. I mean the "high" portion is not showing as high.

Take more shots:
- Take a very-close shot (if you can) -- enough to distinguish the little LCD Red Green Blue dots. Want to check if we see a pattern here. Especially in problematic areas.
- Change the resolution of the screen to something smaller -- like 800x600 -- It might give a hint on which portion of the circuitry is failing (inside the LCD Panel or is it the LVDS board). Take a shot of the RGB bars with that.
- (probably it won't do anything in your case but have you tried changing the frequency of the monitor?  60Hz, 75Hz)



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 08, 2010, 04:51:15 PM
Your thinking about changing the LCD is good and realistic.  But fixing the original LCD is also another effort I think is worth the try. 

I see the photos you taken:  Is it close to what you see in reality?  How would you qualify the issues you have?  Here I see:

- I see "vertical bars" everywhere -- but maybe this is just because we are looking at a photo?
- everything looks purple-ish
- the green channel seems the problematic one. In the middle of the bar, it sort fails. I mean the "high" portion is not showing as high.

Take more shots:
- Take a very-close shot (if you can) -- enough to distinguish the little LCD Red Green Blue dots. Want to check if we see a pattern here. Especially in problematic areas.
- Change the resolution of the screen to something smaller -- like 800x600 -- It might give a hint on which portion of the circuitry is failing (inside the LCD Panel or is it the LVDS board). Take a shot of the RGB bars with that.
- (probably it won't do anything in your case but have you tried changing the frequency of the monitor?  60Hz, 75Hz)



bernard

the photos is almost the same in reality! the quality of the lcd is very poor is like the old´s tft that we see in the 1º´s notebook you remember it?
i tried everthing you say change 800X600 and the frequemcy but is the same the only thing that solve it is reduce all de brightness and contrast to 0!!
because of that i want change the LCD for a new one. what is the best choise?:

- buy a 15" notebook LCD and the LCD controller kit or a 15" TFT monitor and disassemble it?



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 05:37:36 PM
Now here's theory of what is happening on the screen:  Every 2 columns, the green channel has the "wrong" intensity. In particular, its "high" bit is always zero. If the brightness is set to "half" (that might mean setting to 0 like you did) you avoid using the high intensity and you thus avoid the issue. But of course you only have half of the intensity on the screen!

Sorry about this, I am still trying to find a way to fix your LCD panel -- in parallel, yes, need to get a properly sized LCD.  You can even think of boosting the resolution up to 1050 lines! That would be a nice upgrade!


for the LCD panel repair:

At this stage it can either be in the LVDS driver or the LCD Panel. Changing the resolution might give a hint, but depending on the result, we might still not know.

When you can, open the Cintiq and report the LCD Panel model number. We can maybe find the datasheet for it. If this is a similar setup than a TabletPC, the LCD Panel sticker *might* be hidden behind the Wacom (red-ish) sensor board. They "slipped" the very thin Wacom sensor between the LCD Panel "box" and the LCD Panel "circuit". So you might need to remove it to see the LCD Panel sticker.

I am thinking that maybe one of the LVDS channel link (if it's a 2 channel LVDS) would be faulty, but typically each channel maps to different rows (not different columns). So that does not make sense. If it is a 2 channel LVDS (about 50% chances for a XGA resolution) that gives another hint of where the problem might lie.

My guess is that probably the LCD driver circuitre probably drives 2 pixels at a time and one side has a misconnection (a bad/cold soldering on a pad) -- OR it is entirely inside a IC (chip) -- in which case there is nothing we can do. To diagnose, I will want to see a close shot of the LCD Panel circuitry.  But first thing first.  Change the resolution and give out the result. Then open the cintiq and get the LCD Panel model number (and take nice pictures of the inside of the Cintiq!). yay!



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 08, 2010, 06:54:51 PM
i begain the disassemble, bernard how i pull this cables?

(http://www.wolfsoull.com/imagens_net/cab.jpg)


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: TheGreenBean on August 08, 2010, 09:38:00 PM
Not to step on Bernards toes, but that cable looks like you should pull the brown bar towards the cable ( away from the socket )  the cable will be loose, and then just pull it out..

but what i wanted to add, to the topic, is that your problem looks almost identical to what my build look like when the VGA cable is loose ( and it gets this way then it's not secured inside my build )   ...


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 08, 2010, 11:15:13 PM
thegreenbean is right: there are even little "arrows" on the brown connector that guides you on what to do.  You pull the brown piece a little (pulling in the "direction" of the cable) -- and then the cable will be "free" to get out. This is the same FFC connector we see everywhere (on this forum).  Do not apply too much force, you do not want to break anything.

BTW: Although I happen to be answering to a lot of posts, this is a public forum and I invite everybody to answer!  More people = more fun! :)


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 09, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
finally finished the disassembly :)

bernard here is the photos of cintiq pl-500

(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1338.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1339.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1340.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1341.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1342.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1343.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1344.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1345.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1346.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1347.JPG)
(http://www.wolfsoull.com/cintiq/DSC_1348.JPG)


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 09, 2010, 03:34:17 PM
nice piece of jewerly!  :)

So the LCD Panel seems to be a "Hyundai HT15X22-10"   Luckily, its datasheet came up quickly on Google: http://www.agpartsworldwide.com/lcd_specs/HT15X22-100.pdf

8-bit color, 4-CCFL
And.. hum, its says:
TTL Interface with 2pixel / clock
TTL ! -- that might mean it is not LVDS. But that changes the interface, it might actually help us!

So it is possible the issue is simply the connection.  The faulty connector would be either:  connector pin 20 (GA7) or pin 50 (GB7) --- this is the high bit of the green channel (odd or even)--  (I do not know if it is the odd columns or even columns that are "wrong" (starting at column 0).  In other words, if the first column on the left side is not good, the problem should be GA7. If the first column no the left is good then the issue is pin 50 (GB7).  Looking at the pictures, I am guessing pin 20 (GA7) is the problematic signal.

Do you have a multimeter or some sort of continuity tester?  (you can build one with a little lamp + battery + wire).



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 09, 2010, 03:44:03 PM
bernard i dont have one! and i dont have the little lamp + battery + wire too :(

but tell me my ideia is remove the old LCD and  use only the tablet in the new LCD monitor what monitor you recommend? and LVDS driver, inverter to the new one?


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 09, 2010, 04:05:47 PM
You have to understand that getting a new LCD is risky. It might not work the first shot. There might be jitter which is not that fun to deal with. (might have to buy another LCD, until you find one that works).  Also, it will most probably not fit the case - you might will have to do case modifications. You might have to "unfold" the LCD as its circuits is on the back of the LCD -- not the safest operation -- other have ruined their LCDs doing just that. (LCDs are fragile and not meant to be "unfolded".) Your LCD (I am not 100% sure yet, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems all the circuitry of the HT LCD is on the edges only).

That is, unless you find the exact same LCD model to "drop in". (there is always the possibility that the issue is in the driver circuit or simply in the connector cable which can be found for like 5..15$ online.

I cannot recommend anything since this is essentially "junkyard hunting" and the only thing I can say is to go with whatever has worked before to be on the safe side. Now, I know nobody that has the same tablet as yours that tried to match a LCD. So no luck with past experience. You are alone in this path I believe (but you can try to search).

The only thing I could recommend is to find the exact same part and buy that. But it seems that they are not LVDS, so I have no idea where to find TTL-driver circuit for cheap (i.e. less than 350$US). 

If we can find where is the problem, we can replace or fix that problem, end of story, you have a slick, perfect Cintiq.

Don't read me wrong: I am not trying to discourage you since you might very well have to go through all that anyway: Replacing the whole thing is indeed the good approach if your LCD is not 'easy' to fix.

But at least "try" to fix it -- I am helping you now -- note: I will be gone for 2-3 weeks on vacation next week, so better hurry up.

A multimeter (with continuity tester -- they all do that nowadays) can be found for cheap in a local shop or online. It is always good for battery testing anyway.



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 09, 2010, 04:23:45 PM
i understand bernard but for me is more easy now buy a new 15" LCD and his lcd controller kit and made the modifications of the case to fit it! and tablet panel behind the lcd and shield like the original one! a made as the same way of the projects here, because of that i need know what lcd panels that have good results in the members projects! that we can find on ebay


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 09, 2010, 04:41:07 PM
It is not an individual LCD that is good, but a combination of LCD + tablet. Look it up yourself to be sure, but I do not remember seeing your tablet being used in any bongofish build so far.

--------

So since you have nothing to do now at this moment (lack of tools or replacement parts). You can now try to reconnect everything and power it up. Then you can "play" with the connections and connectors to see if the image suddenly appears correctly.  This does not require any special tools.  Just the fact that you unplugged-replugged it might fix the problem(!).

To be able to set it up, you sometimes have to find creative ways of placing stuff so they do not touch. Like making it "stand up". A little note: the CCFL (backlight) driver circuitry is high voltage -- and that means you stay away from it when powered (it hurts). High voltage *can* jump (arc) through thin stuff like a piece of paper for example.

Triple check everything before powering it up. Nothing must touch each other and everything should be "secured" if you touch it (not going to fall). Make sure no cable is being "stressed" (you do not want to break stuff even more!) -- put the screen in a position that you will be able to see (even if awkward).  Make sure you place all the cables in secure locations (do not want to trip on it and bring the whole setup on the floor).  I usually use a power bar that I bring on the table for quick connect/deconnect in case of "smoke appearing". :)   

All that is something you will have to do many times anyway if you go the route of getting a new LCD Panel.



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 09, 2010, 04:56:33 PM
ok i will reconnect all and see what happens :) bu i doubt that will fix because the lcd quality is very poor! because of that i want to made a new project and try use only the tablet from the cintiq 15"  is the other projects work with wacom intuous 2 and others i think this tablet will work on new lcd screen too and made a new and custom case for it.

because of that i ask you you opinion about what lcd screen do you recommend and his lcd controller kit to power it up?



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 09, 2010, 08:57:14 PM
I am sorry but I cannot say more than I honestly know. I cannot 'recommend' (or even suggest) anything more than what I already told you. Let me quote myself and add a little bit more nevertheless.

Quote from: bernard
[..] go with whatever has worked before to be on the safe side. Now, I know nobody that has the same tablet as yours that tried to match a LCD. So no luck with past experience. You are alone in this path I believe (but you can try to search).

Here's what I would do if I wanted to replace the LCD completely for myself: :)

I would opt for a 15 inches 4:3 LCD Panel that would have 1050 lines. (because I know these exists and I like this resolution -- it is good even for a primary monitor). I would check the **Exact** active area size before doing anything. I do not want to have a screen that is bigger than the wacom (but the reverse is OK). I would try to find one with a price point that won't bother me too too much if it isn't working.  Once I spot the LCD (and its LCD Panel model number & datasheet), I would start sending emails to get a cheap LVDS+inverter board (we have a couple of suppliers  http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:lvdsvendors ). Cheap because that one I might have to throw away (or return with a fee/exchanged/reprogrammed for another LCD Panel) if the LCD is not working or produces too much "jitter" with the Wacom tablet.

---------

As for your current LCD: The LCD quality is not that bad - Only 1 bit (out of 8 bits) of the Green channel on half of the pixels is not working. If you ever reconnect/repair that little signal, it will shine like new. So it is not "so poor quality" -- this is a misconception because it is just broken. This LCD might not have the highest constrast ratio nor the highest resolution, but it is a 8 bit panel (not a cheap TN).


Just to check if travelling by car to drop something is feasible, did you mentioned in which country you live in?  I live in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 09, 2010, 10:01:35 PM
bernard! after reconnect everthing! suprise! fix everthing!! now i can bright and saturation it and work perfectually! :)

you are right in everthing, i wanna thank you and all the help you provide me.

thanks bernard :)


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: bernard on August 09, 2010, 11:24:41 PM
...and the light was filling his eyes, he could not believe the little miracle that was summoning between his own hands. Bongofish is alive!

Have a good day wolfsoull --  Watch out not to break anything -- in the excitement it is easy to break something. 



Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: wolfsoull on August 10, 2010, 12:09:47 AM
...and the light was filling his eyes, he could not believe the little miracle that was summoning between his own hands. Bongofish is alive!

Have a good day wolfsoull --  Watch out not to break anything -- in the excitement it is easy to break something. 



:) have a nice day bernard


Title: Re: Cintiq 15X PL-550
Post by: JohnWeel on November 18, 2011, 08:10:01 PM
Just found seller who sell wacom tabs.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/zo0mer/m.html

You can buy another wacom Pl-550 in mint condition  ;)