Bongofish

Screen Tablet malarky => Tutorials and useful knowledge => Topic started by: Drewid on January 27, 2007, 12:10:57 PM



Title: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Drewid on January 27, 2007, 12:10:57 PM
Hello and welcome to the show.   

So you want to have a go and build a screen tablet?

Before you start there are some things you should know.  This sort of fiddling can get addictive, and obsessive, it can eat time, and it's a whole heap of fun.
Things may get broken, You ought to be prepared that anything you take apart may never work again. ;D   That's life.

What Monitor / tablet to use?   Well the least risky proposition is the combination I used, a Wacom UD-1212 and a Dell 1503FP screen. This is known to work, but that's down to dumb luck rather than any knowledge skill on my part. The group is very young, so we're still in the process of finding out what works and what doesn't, and what to do about it.

IMPORTANT:
Before you start stripping anything try "Bhrazz's opening gambit."  http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=142.0
You also ought to know about handling electronic stuffs:   http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=83.0
Soldering is also a useful skill to aquire, though not essential.  http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=122.0

When I was a kid learning to ride a motorbike you weren't consideresd a "biker" till you'd had your first crash. I'm thinking we need to be applying the same rule here.   Breaking things seem to be an inevitable part of the building process. There are some notes of fragile things to watch out for here:
http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=95.0 
http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=74.0

Jittering,  lots of monitors seem to suffer from this, a few don't.  My original tablet didn't, dumb luck again.
This seems to be caused by the inverter that drives the tube backlights tha are used in most monitors, and this is why there is so much interest in alternative forms of backlight such as LED or EL film.     It might be curable by rotating or shielding the inverter,  frankly we're still finding out.

If you are still determined to have a go read some of the build logs, there's some real inspirational stuff going on.   8)

Have fun - break stuff responsibly.  ;)

Cheers
-Drew



Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Switz on January 27, 2007, 07:19:13 PM
Some good shit right there Drew.

 ;D


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Drewid on March 08, 2007, 09:24:14 AM
WARNING!!!

Inverters drive high voltage lamps.  Don't touch them when they are on and make sure they are covered

They really really hurt.


LOTS[/color]
[/size]


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: naspc on March 08, 2007, 01:34:24 PM
how long do you have to wait to touch the inverter after you turn it off and unplugged it?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: dynam1c on March 08, 2007, 01:56:21 PM
Thank You Drew..

But honestly what kinda idiot would touch an uncovered Invert.. !

@naspc - Once you turned off the monitor and just to make sure taken the psu out you can dance on the inverter if you like (I dont recommend it)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: naspc on March 08, 2007, 02:18:24 PM
ah man why didn't you tell me earlier? the urge was just to great........... :-\


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Chems on March 12, 2007, 01:18:50 PM
I touched my inverter! And Damn it hurt, but it wasnt that bad. And it was an accident I was practising drawing with my screen in naked mode!


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 05:21:46 AM
Ok, I'm new here and just starting out. Can someone explain to me - if you use a desktop monitor for this why do you need to tear everything apart?

Is it absolutely necessary or is it just something that people are doing to have something that looks prettier than a wacom duct-taped to the back of a desktop monitor?

If you decide to use a desktop monitor, besides the monitor and the tablet themselves, what exact parts do you need to make a build? I think it's insane that there's no sticky that has a plain list of the parts as needed for use with a laptop vs. as needed for a desktop.

Is a separate control board and power supply necessary regardless or is that only for laptops - unless the monitor is being controlled via USB which brings up another question. Do these need to connect to the computer via USB and video cable or just USB and which are connecting to what?

What's stopping you from putting them together in a simpler manner that doesn't require extreme care to avoid damaging things? (for example, just plugging the monitor into the video card, wacom to usb, and have them stuck together instead of torn apart and reassembled)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: StickyNavels on August 25, 2011, 08:46:39 AM
I'm all shades of green when it comes to this, but:

Nearly all desktop monitors have metal shielding in the back, as well as wires and such running across. This will interfere with your tablet's sensor, even block the signals completely.

This is also the reason you'll want to find a monitor with external power, or the EM interference with cause a lot of bother.

You'll also need to find a panel with edge-lit backlighting. Shouldn't be too difficult; most thin, standard-issue LCD monitors are edge-lit, as it's a cheap solution. IIRC, only a few panels use full-array backlighting - (mostly TVs actually)the problem with those is, again, interference and perhaps added thickness and more heat.

Even if all of the above weren't an issue, you'd have to find an incredibly thin monitor as the tablet's sensor range is about 9mm - maybe plus a few millimeters if you've disassembled the tablet.

As for which parts you need to salvage - it depends! Is it a LED panel, or a CCFL one?

I think the reason there's no sticky covering all this is because there's a such a wide arrange of possible panels and solutions available. There's very little in the way of a standardized process.

If you want to know which methods *do* work, you'll want to check out the "Successfull Builds" sub-forum and look for something that resembles what you want to achieve.





Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 01:47:46 PM
Does the external controller board play any role for a desktop monitor, or is that only for laptops that don't already have one (and a power supply)?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 25, 2011, 03:19:12 PM
The controller board is only needed when using laptop screens. It takes the VGA/DVI signal from your PC and sends it to the LCD panel through an LVDS cable. Desktop monitors come with a controller board inside the casing, but in laptops the controller is usually integrated in the motherboard, so the LCD panel can't be used on its own. That's why if you are using a laptop LCD, you will need to buy a controller board kit from eBay etc.

The power supply for the controller board kits is any AC adapter that can output 12V, 4A DC. Universal notebook adapters (http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00zBdtvjTFbEku/Universal-Notebook-Adapter-BL-ULA-70W-.jpg) are the best for this case.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 03:28:12 PM
Thank you! For a clear answer to what should be spelled out. Having not owned a Cintiq, I wasn't sure if the board was needed to control synchronization between the tablet and monitor or if it was just for power and output. Now that this is answered, it greatly simplifies the rest.

So basically, I just need to disassemble both the tablet and monitor very carefully, match them up correctly, build a case, and ground?

If I'm using a desktop monitor, the only part where I would actually need to be soldering would be to ground everything or if I broke something during the assembly/disassembly right?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 25, 2011, 03:46:23 PM
Actually, the Cintiqs are a little different, because the controller board is literally a seperate thing from the tablet, and it serves a double function:

- It keeps the tablet itself light and thin
- It combines the monitor signal and the tablet's USB signal to a cable with a proprietary plug. This way if something breaks, you can only get a spare from Wacom. On DIY cintiqs you have 3 cables coming out of the tablet - power supply, USB cable from the tablet and the VGA/DVI cable. It may actually do synchronization, but there is no info on this...

Quote
So basically, I just need to disassemble both the tablet and monitor very carefully, match them up correctly, build a case, and ground?

Yes, this is the ideal case. But monitors are very different on the inside, so there are some issues which you may or may not run into, it all depends on how it's designed. Internal power supply for example is one of those possible issues, so you should look for one with an external adapter. Another potential problem affects desktop and laptop LCD's alike, especially in older monitors. It's when you can't unfold the two circuit boards in the back (they interfere with the tablet signal), because they are joined with a cable (in brown here):

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/058/002/295/295002058_870.jpg)

You can only fix it by getting a longer cable. But they aren't easy to find and are different for each monitor!



Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 04:46:08 PM
I'm looking at doing a build like this: http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1967.0

but with a Intuos4 instead of 3. If I need extenders, where's the best place currently to get them? I thought I read somewhere here that people were having trouble with diy-beamers.

I'm thinking of building a poor-man's wood case by hand for this and slot it for a pane of hardened glass up front. Will that be ok for ventilation? (Assuming I'll have to cut some air holes). Is that the cheapest way to go?

Rik! complained about LED heat. Would that be as big an issue in a wood case vs. just open like he presently has his?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 25, 2011, 05:16:50 PM
I dont know how hot LED's get, but the operating temperature for standard CCFL bulb LCD screen is around 50 degrees Celsius (according to my monitor's datasheet anyway). That is pretty hot to the touch, but not enough to melt plastic or burn wood. If it really bugs you, you can use a thin ceramic tile or some sort of heatsink under the lamp but that probably won't be necessary.

I have not had to use any extenders for my project, so i can't tell you anything about that...

Glass is a great surface because it's cheap, thin, rigid, and doesn't scratch up like plexiglass does. I use regular 2mm thick glass with a clear protective film on one side to prevent any injuries in case it's shattered.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 25, 2011, 05:30:38 PM
FFC "extenders" are a real bummer -- AFAIK, diy-beamer are the only ones that have those.  This is a custom PCB that they probably built.  There are potential alternatives, but they are far from ideal.

Note: If you cannot find the size that fits your cable, you can get away with a bigger one (same pitch though, like 0.5mm) and carefully connect it.

I searched for alternatives, but found nothing really compelling.

Doing a simtiq is a very bumpy road. Don't put too much money thinking that it will work for sure -- it might all end up in the garbage. Lots of people broke at least one LCD -- some LCDs were extremely nice ones and brand new $$$.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 06:02:42 PM
The way I am, that just means I'll be 4x as careful :)

That's also why I was asking about the LED issue because I'd like to avoid having to deal with extenders.

But I also just realized I've got a potential size mismatch if I use that monitor, as there appear to be two different ratio Intuos4's (listed as 19.2x12 and 18.2x12 in different places on Wacom's site). Since I'm not sure which one mine will be, I'd better wait to get a display until I'm sure it will match up closely so there isn't wrap-around (and hopefully to avoid needing an extension FFS).


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Rik! on August 25, 2011, 09:24:26 PM
I don't think that such a creen exist. You will need longer FFC or extension for sure.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 25, 2011, 09:37:38 PM
There is no screen that fits perfectly with the Intuos4 XL (18.18 x 12 inch). The closest screens to an Intuos4 L are 14'' or 15'' 4:3 screens, but even they wouldn't be accurate. Why did Wacom suddenly stop having proper ratios for their tablets?

Also, you can use http://tvcalculator.com/ (http://tvcalculator.com/) to find the exact dimensions of a screen.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
18.2x12 is ~3:2, c=21.8"
19.2x12 is 16:10, c=22.64"

The LG I was looking at would fit pretty close if it's the former since it's also 16:9 and similar diagonal.

But I read somewhere that they switched to 16:10 on newer Intuos4's which seems consistent with the fact that Wacom lists different dimensions on different pages. I'll just wait and measure it once it arrives and then shop for a screen from there.

Edit: Brain fart, don't know what I was thinking.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 25, 2011, 09:59:31 PM
I don't think that such a creen exist. You will need longer FFC or extension for sure.

I'm also considering going for a larger screen - 23-24" and just having dead zones on the edges it's larger than the Intuos.

A larger set might also not have FFC's that are so short as the 226. So I'm still mulling it over a bit.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 25, 2011, 10:17:36 PM
These sizes are not correct... check the URL in my last post. 18.2x12 is not a 16:9 ratio, because if you divide 18.2 by 12 you do not get 1.777(7), as you would if you divide 16 by 9.

- 18.2x12 is closest to a 21'' 16:9 screen (18.32'' x 10.29''), or a 25'' 16:9 (21.2" x 11.91"), depending on whether you want to match the horizontal or vertical dimension.

- On Wacom's website it lists the active area for the Intuos4XL as 462 mm x 305 mm, which converts to 18.18892'' x 12.00784''... They really should start using the metric system for screens... ::)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 25, 2011, 11:09:27 PM
So Pesho, you mean that for a Intuos4XL, 21 inches is the biggest *16:9 widescreen* display one could get without incurring unreachable screen area.  But with the trick of "cropping" the LCD (with nvidia/ati/powerstrip), getting a 25 inch would cover the entire tablet.  Right?



Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 26, 2011, 12:06:44 AM
The screen-cropping trick on the Intuos4XL is only needed if you're using the bigger, 25'' 16:9 screen!

- With a 21'' the horizontal dimension would be covered (18.32''), but the vertical is not enough (10.29''), so you'd have 1.71'' unused tablet area. Not a problem, since you can crop out the tablet's active area instead.

- With a 25'' you'd have the vertical dimension covered, but the horizontal would be so over-covered that it might overlap the tablet's buttons...

So the best case scenario for the Intuos4XL is to use a 21'' 16:9 screen and just crop out the tablet's active are a bit. Not a big deal since you're only losing 1.71 inches (45.466mm) and the whole screen will be usable by the tablet.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 26, 2011, 01:19:14 AM
These sizes are not correct... check the URL in my last post. 18.2x12 is not a 16:9 ratio, because if you divide 18.2 by 12 you do not get 1.777(7), as you would if you divide 16 by 9.

- 18.2x12 is closest to a 21'' 16:9 screen (18.32'' x 10.29''), or a 25'' 16:9 (21.2" x 11.91"), depending on whether you want to match the horizontal or vertical dimension.

- On Wacom's website it lists the active area for the Intuos4XL as 462 mm x 305 mm, which converts to 18.18892'' x 12.00784''... They really should start using the metric system for screens... ::)

Thanks, I think I was making fuzzy math in an effort to turn it into 16:9 (assuming that Wacom was using a normal aspect ratio). But either way, I should wait to measure which my model is: http://www.wacom.com/en/Products/Intuos/Compare.aspx

shows 487.7mm x 304.8mm for the XL (16:10). So if there're two different ratio versions floating around I should probably wait and see what I get before shopping for a panel.

The screen-cropping trick on the Intuos4XL is only needed if you're using the bigger, 25'' 16:9 screen!

- With a 21'' the horizontal dimension would be covered (18.32''), but the vertical is not enough (10.29''), so you'd have 1.71'' unused tablet area. Not a problem, since you can crop out the tablet's active area instead.

- With a 25'' you'd have the vertical dimension covered, but the horizontal would be so over-covered that it might overlap the tablet's buttons...

So the best case scenario for the Intuos4XL is to use a 21'' 16:9 screen and just crop out the tablet's active are a bit. Not a big deal since you're only losing 1.71 inches (45.466mm) and the whole screen will be usable by the tablet.

I think you've got it reversed. By my figures, 21.5" (17.2"x12.9") covers the vertical dimension, but is slightly short on the horizontal. 25" would actually be overkill in both dimensions (20"x15"). 23" (18.4"x13.8") seems to be the best common ground, if it turns out to not be 16:10.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Rik! on August 26, 2011, 07:50:31 AM
These sizes are not correct... check the URL in my last post. 18.2x12 is not a 16:9 ratio, because if you divide 18.2 by 12 you do not get 1.777(7), as you would if you divide 16 by 9.

- 18.2x12 is closest to a 21'' 16:9 screen (18.32'' x 10.29''), or a 25'' 16:9 (21.2" x 11.91"), depending on whether you want to match the horizontal or vertical dimension.

- On Wacom's website it lists the active area for the Intuos4XL as 462 mm x 305 mm, which converts to 18.18892'' x 12.00784''... They really should start using the metric system for screens... ::)

Thanks, I think I was making fuzzy math in an effort to turn it into 16:9 (assuming that Wacom was using a normal aspect ratio). But either way, I should wait to measure which my model is: http://www.wacom.com/en/Products/Intuos/Compare.aspx

shows 487.7mm x 304.8mm for the XL (16:10). So if there're two different ratio versions floating around I should probably wait and see what I get before shopping for a panel.

The screen-cropping trick on the Intuos4XL is only needed if you're using the bigger, 25'' 16:9 screen!

- With a 21'' the horizontal dimension would be covered (18.32''), but the vertical is not enough (10.29''), so you'd have 1.71'' unused tablet area. Not a problem, since you can crop out the tablet's active area instead.

- With a 25'' you'd have the vertical dimension covered, but the horizontal would be so over-covered that it might overlap the tablet's buttons...

So the best case scenario for the Intuos4XL is to use a 21'' 16:9 screen and just crop out the tablet's active are a bit. Not a big deal since you're only losing 1.71 inches (45.466mm) and the whole screen will be usable by the tablet.

I think you've got it reversed. By my figures, 21.5" (17.2"x12.9") covers the vertical dimension, but is slightly short on the horizontal. 25" would actually be overkill in both dimensions (20"x15"). 23" (18.4"x13.8") seems to be the best common ground, if it turns out to not be 16:10.

No your wrong and he's right. As the 16:9 ration is larger, it'll cover more horizontal dimension than vertical. On mine I completely fit the horizontal dimension but I'm about 1 inch short vertically.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 26, 2011, 11:04:57 AM
Thanks, I think I was making fuzzy math in an effort to turn it into 16:9 (assuming that Wacom was using a normal aspect ratio). But either way, I should wait to measure which my model is: http://www.wacom.com/en/Products/Intuos/Compare.aspx

shows 487.7mm x 304.8mm for the XL (16:10). So if there're two different ratio versions floating around I should probably wait and see what I get before shopping for a panel.

Ha, you are right! 487.7mm x 304.8mm really is a proper 16:10 ratio - makes you wonder which size is the correct one... I was looking at this page (http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?lang=en&pid=253), and it lists it as  462 mm x 305 mm.

Quote
I think you've got it reversed. By my figures, 21.5" (17.2"x12.9") covers the vertical dimension, but is slightly short on the horizontal. 25" would actually be overkill in both dimensions (20"x15"). 23" (18.4"x13.8") seems to be the best common ground, if it turns out to not be 16:10.

Right again... I was using tvcalculator.com to get the figures, but what i didn't notice is that the dimensions it showed were actually the size of a 4:3 image INSIDE the 16:9/16:10 screen! So yeah, 17.2"x12.9" is the correct size for a 21.5'' LCD and it should fit the bill  :P 23'' also works, as long as it doesn't cover the buttons...


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 26, 2011, 01:58:19 PM
No your wrong and he's right. As the 16:9 ration is larger, it'll cover more horizontal dimension than vertical. On mine I completely fit the horizontal dimension but I'm about 1 inch short vertically.

Nope, we've got different tablets. If the i4 is in fact that wacky 18.2x12" aspect ratio (~3:2), it's equivalent to 15:10 which means the horizontal is actually a little shorter. If the tablet is 16:10 (per the other wacom link), then matching it up is easier, although I think I 'd have to go with a non-LED LCD in order to get IPS which would be suboptimal.

I'm actually kind of hoping that it's that wacky 3:2 ratio, even though it'll mean I'll need to crop the top and/or bottom out since that'll increase the likelihood that I don't need any extension ribbon (leaning toward a 23" now in that case).


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 26, 2011, 03:02:35 PM
FFC "extenders" are a real bummer -- AFAIK, diy-beamer are the only ones that have those.  This is a custom PCB that they probably built.  There are potential alternatives, but they are far from ideal.

Note: If you cannot find the size that fits your cable, you can get away with a bigger one (same pitch though, like 0.5mm) and carefully connect it.

I searched for alternatives, but found nothing really compelling.

Doing a simtiq is a very bumpy road. Don't put too much money thinking that it will work for sure -- it might all end up in the garbage. Lots of people broke at least one LCD -- some LCDs were extremely nice ones and brand new $$$.

I was looking a bit and I had a question about the breaking LCD's thing. Is the weak link generally the connection to the board(s) or is the cable itself flimsy? What I'm wondering is whether reinforcing that connection(s) before mucking with anything would prevent that from happening.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 26, 2011, 03:23:47 PM
LCDs are broken in a variety of ways (from putting foil without insulation(!!!))  -- but the most "dangerous" I would say is when you start unfolding the circuit. Every line and column in the LCD matrix have (I think) a tiny wire in one of the flex circuit.  Those are not soldered -- it is bond by other exotic technique and can "disconnect" with little force. This is going to the "glass substrate" where the lcd matrix is.   This flexible pcb is like plastic paper: it can rip easily (once it starts ripping on one side the crack can easily get longer). 

I would say that you should try to avoid to fold/unfold to often and once unfolded, reduce the movements of the LCD to a minimum. Easier said than done. 

The first time you will touch a LCD Panel you will be super careful I am sure -- but after a little while, one typically gets a little bit more "secure", "excited" and/or "focused on another problem" -- the carefullyness drops a little -- and that's a potential danger.

You should not put "tape" onto the fragile parts, because if you ever need to remove it, then you have a potentially bigger problem.

The jitter is also another issue whereby people have abandonned a LCD because it was creating too much interference.  It was not because it was broken.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 26, 2011, 03:37:52 PM
I wasn't thinking about tape per-se when I said reinforcement. I didn't have anything set in mind, but what about building a kind of mini "cage"/shaft around the connection and taping the ribbon where it enters the cage so that the cable itself is taking the pressure, rather than the connection to the board? That's assuming the ribbon itself is more resilient.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 29, 2011, 08:50:59 PM
Thanks, I think I was making fuzzy math in an effort to turn it into 16:9 (assuming that Wacom was using a normal aspect ratio). But either way, I should wait to measure which my model is: http://www.wacom.com/en/Products/Intuos/Compare.aspx

shows 487.7mm x 304.8mm for the XL (16:10). So if there're two different ratio versions floating around I should probably wait and see what I get before shopping for a panel.

Ha, you are right! 487.7mm x 304.8mm really is a proper 16:10 ratio - makes you wonder which size is the correct one... I was looking at this page (http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?lang=en&pid=253), and it lists it as  462 mm x 305 mm.

Quote
I think you've got it reversed. By my figures, 21.5" (17.2"x12.9") covers the vertical dimension, but is slightly short on the horizontal. 25" would actually be overkill in both dimensions (20"x15"). 23" (18.4"x13.8") seems to be the best common ground, if it turns out to not be 16:10.

Right again... I was using tvcalculator.com to get the figures, but what i didn't notice is that the dimensions it showed were actually the size of a 4:3 image INSIDE the 16:9/16:10 screen! So yeah, 17.2"x12.9" is the correct size for a 21.5'' LCD and it should fit the bill  :P 23'' also works, as long as it doesn't cover the buttons...

Well it came and apparently it's 19.2" not 18.2" so the it's basically 16:10. I might have to forgo LED backlit in order to find a screen that matches.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 29, 2011, 08:55:55 PM
With all the numbers and the posts, I am not following very well.  :-[

What came? An Intuos4?  Can you tell the exact model and width/height sizes (mm or inches)?  I want to keep this valuable info in the wiki.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 29, 2011, 09:08:22 PM
With all the numbers and the posts, I am not following very well.  :-[

What came? An Intuos4?  Can you tell the exact model and width/height sizes (mm or inches)?  I want to keep this valuable info in the wiki.

Disclaimer: this is just using my measuring tape and the numbers in mm do not match exactly (but within experimental error) to what wacom states on their comparison chart.

This is the Intuos4 XL. I measured 490x302mm, which would make it 16:10. But like I said earlier in this thread, there may also be an older version with a wacky format closer to ~3:2. Everyone should measure their own tablet to double check dimensions before ordering a screen for it or building a case. If they get a newer Intuos4 XL, it SHOULD be similar to mine. Just stressing that people should be careful to double check everything at each step. :)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 29, 2011, 10:16:53 PM
It's always best to measure things!  ;)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 29, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
...and what would be the model number (is it a "PTK-1240" ?)  trying to find a way to (eventually) distinguish "~3:2" XL vs. "16:10" XL just by looking at the product sticker


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 29, 2011, 10:42:48 PM
...and what would be the model number (is it a "PTK-1240" ?)  trying to find a way to (eventually) distinguish "~3:2" XL vs. "16:10" XL just by looking at the product sticker

Yes, that's the model# but as far as I'm aware all Intuos4s of the given size have that. I'll take a look later on tonight/tomorrow and see if I can find any other markings that might serve to differentiate.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 29, 2011, 10:48:45 PM
Speaking of aspect ratios:  *All* the Intuos4 tablets (but the XL) are 16:10 exactly.  Do we have evidence that an Intuos4 XL of 18.2 x 12 really exists or is this just a big typo from Wacom?  18.2 <-> 19.2 really looks like a typo and that would thus mean:  487.7 mm by 304.8 mm

I just saw that the my bongofish wiki was saying 487.7mm and 18.2 inches  (contradictory!) -- I guess I picked that from different sources(?)  I changed it for 19.2  (but with a note for 18.2 -- maybe there are 18.2 tablets?).

EDIT: the Intuos4 Manual also states 19.2 and 487.7mm -- my guess: the web page has a typo and lots of people are feeding from that page. -- It also states 16:10 in the section "General Specifications For All Intuos 4 Tablets".


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 29, 2011, 11:15:55 PM
Speaking of aspect ratios:  *All* the Intuos4 tablets (but the XL) are 16:10 exactly.  Do we have evidence that an Intuos4 XL of 18.2 x 12 really exists or is this just a big typo from Wacom?  18.2 <-> 19.2 really looks like a typo and that would thus mean:  487.7 mm by 304.8 mm

I just saw that the my bongofish wiki was saying 487.7mm and 18.2 inches  (contradictory!) -- I guess I picked that from different sources(?)  I changed it for 19.2  (but with a note for 18.2 -- maybe there are 18.2 tablets?).

EDIT: the Intuos4 Manual also states 19.2 and 487.7mm -- my guess: the web page has a typo and lots of people are feeding from that page. -- It also states 16:10 in the section "General Specifications For All Intuos 4 Tablets".

Since the other ones are also 16:10, my guess (unless proven otherwise) is that it's just a typo - probably propagated around the internet because the main product page states the typo while only the comparison page lists the correct dimensions.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 30, 2011, 05:27:54 PM
hey guys, so many people are not too good at computing Math.sqrt(x*x + y*y) (and variants) and not realizing that there is a difference between a 15 inch widescreen and 15 inch 4:3. So I've decided to build my own online tool -- targeted at DIY simtiqs specifically.  I have been thinking about this for a long time but your recent exchange got me going. :)  Thanks to you!

http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1984.0


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 30, 2011, 08:18:08 PM
Nice link. Makes me not have to do the calculation myself. But on a side note, it appears there's just about no 23" monitors out there that're 1920x1200. Discounting the $600 NEC's, the only ones out there are used Cinema Displays and seems like a colossal waste for a set that might not even work. I looked at the older 23" SM and that doesn't look like it's workable (might be a non-removable board in top center). Additionally the ADC adapter is another $150. The newer one is likewise ~$400 used. I'm thinking the best solution is a 21 or 22" 16:9 IPS and an extension cable (yeah I know). It's disappointing to me that manufacturers aren't making 16:10 23"ers anymore.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 30, 2011, 08:32:54 PM
Have you checked if there are any old 23'' monitors?

@bernard - thanks again for this tool! It's a bit too late for me, but newcomers will find it very useful!


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 30, 2011, 08:43:46 PM
Have you checked if there are any old 23'' monitors?

@bernard - thanks again for this tool! It's a bit too late for me, but newcomers will find it very useful!

there sure are, but I'm not going to spend $300-400 for a used monitor. Especially when 16:9 monitors are under $200 new.

When they were still being manufactured, there were some others (HP, Philips, Benq, Sony) that also made monitors and some of them were pretty cheap, esp. refurbs from major stores. But now there's only used Apple's. Any of the others that're still around online are asking big bucks that don't make sense in the context of trying to build a cintiq on the cheap.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Rik! on August 31, 2011, 01:59:28 AM
I found a great 22" 16:10 PVA screen on ebay for 80£ the guy said that it as several of them ... maybe he still have one ? the screen is a Lenovo ThinkVision L220x. Very hard to find now but an amazing screen.

Or in 16:10 you also have the LG W2220P which is great but with a lower resolution.

I personally choose a 16:9 screen for my A3 build because those screen are not LED and have integrated PSU. As I didn't know how it would behave ( jitter and all) I prefered to buy a recent one... but those are still GREAT screens.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 31, 2011, 05:26:52 AM
I would say that beyond the sizes and everything, some of those IPS monitors tend to be thick -- (Talking about the LCD Panel). Typically that is because the backlight is... in the back! (not on the side like laptops).    I have an IPS with 6 (!!) CCFL lamps. I never "saw" the lamps, but they are not on the side for sure.

I never tested but having the backlight lamps in the back sounds like it is going to interfere with the wacom.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 31, 2011, 05:12:00 PM
I would say that beyond the sizes and everything, some of those IPS monitors tend to be thick -- (Talking about the LCD Panel). Typically that is because the backlight is... in the back! (not on the side like laptops).    I have an IPS with 6 (!!) CCFL lamps. I never "saw" the lamps, but they are not on the side for sure.

I never tested but having the backlight lamps in the back sounds like it is going to interfere with the wacom.

What about the lamps would interfere out of curiosity? The frequency or the added thickness? I thought people were able to change the registration distance by moving the backplate on the wacoms. So if it's just that, would that be a fairly simple workaround?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on August 31, 2011, 06:58:14 PM
The distance mostly, but I would not be surprised with interference.

Moving the back panel is something that worked beautifully for one person. Not many tried. I know at least one person tried fairly recently and it didn't work at all. So as of this writing, it is safer to assume that it will not work. If it does, the better.

On top of that, those thick panel typically have a lot of metal to strip off as well.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 31, 2011, 09:25:20 PM
Jitter most definitely increases with the distance! Small jitter at closer range increases when increasing the distance. Interestingly, reading height also varies with the type of material you put between the pen and the surface - on my tablet it reads fine with paper or with the LCD module on at about 6mm, but if you do the same with a stack of CDs, it's a different story...


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 31, 2011, 09:49:11 PM
Jitter most definitely increases with the distance! Small jitter at closer range increases when increasing the distance. Interestingly, reading height also varies with the type of material you put between the pen and the surface - on my tablet it reads fine with paper or with the LCD module on at about 6mm, but if you do the same with a stack of CDs, it's a different story...

Probably that shiny metal layer shielding the tablet from your pen ;)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on August 31, 2011, 10:21:59 PM
It so must've been that :P The "CD test" really is completely useless. Makes you wonder though, if the reason some screens cause jitter and others don't has something to do with thin layers of metal inside them... Like, if more densely packed transistors from hi-res screens would cause more of it etc.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: buildorbust on August 31, 2011, 10:49:37 PM
It so must've been that :P The "CD test" really is completely useless. Makes you wonder though, if the reason some screens cause jitter and others don't has something to do with thin layers of metal inside them... Like, if more densely packed transistors from hi-res screens would cause more of it etc.

Well the thing with cds is there's a lot of variety. The writable discs you buy in a store are basically just optical. I think the pressed ones are more complicated as they're designed to last longer/be more stable. Also, my understanding is that all cd's are designed to be unaffected by magnetic fields, which could be part of the reason they're throwing off the signal - they're actually engineered to reject m fields.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 17, 2011, 09:03:59 AM

Hi have a laptop screen just like the screen stated below with a brown connection between top and left, is it possible to make an extention for it?

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/058/002/295/295002058_870.jpg)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on December 17, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
depends on the connector -- we do not see very well in the picture.  Often these have a connector on one side, and often it is a FFC connector. Now you need the number of pins and the pitch (distance between pins), and, if lucky, you might be able to find alternatives.  You compute the pitch by measuring all the pins (in mm) and dividing by the number of pins.   0.5mm and 1mm are common.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 18, 2011, 12:08:07 PM
Let me start from scratch

(http://i.pchub.com/uph/photos/item/6323093884471875002_LTM15C166.jpg)

i found this panel, and ordered an controller and an adaptor from njytouch, i wish i had read more before ordering because the brown connection issue.

Any way i wouldnt have much selection because there is not much  15inch panels with 1600x1200 res. I got my connector and panels, i succesfuly connected them.

It worked as an monitor.
(http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/6301/20111216200302.jpg)

I was thinking that the hard part was over but it was just starting.

I put the panel on top of the wacom. But my pen didnt respond.

Than i thought that it happend beacuse the panel is too thick. I decided to make it thinner i took out the metal case, and then tried to remove the plastic part. At the end i broke the panel.

I get into this forum and understood that its not the thickness but inteference caused by the green panels behind the panel.

I spend around 50$ for controller and adapter 30$ for broken panel. Now i have to buy another panel for 33$ and i talked with an technician he says he can make a connection between the upper and side panels cable by cable but he wants 40$ for the labor. I will need an case to keep all thing in one piece im estimating 50$ but it could be more.

Is it possible to make it sure, it will work or nor? And do you think does it worth it. Because the panel it not very good from the side views.

I need pro advices.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on December 18, 2011, 03:47:15 PM

Hi have a laptop screen just like the screen stated below with a brown connection between top and left, is it possible to make an extention for it?
(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/058/002/295/295002058_870.jpg)


Oh hey, that's the Sanyo/Torisan TM121-SV, i have the same one here and wanted to use it first, but it's very unsuitable for the DIY screen tablet thing. Although it gives no jitter, it can't be unfolded and it can't use FFC extensions because it uses a very non-standard connector that "snaps in", looks a little like this:

(http://en.esskabel.de/upload/images/produktbilder/FDC31-0325BFF06_500x500_front_ISO.jpg)

The 15'' Toshiba one you showed has the same issue, but the FFC connector appears to be much more common, so you may have more luck finding the proper extension for it. The diy-beamer website offers these extensions, but im not sure how well they will work. If you decide to get another LCD+controller combination, i can recommend the one i used - LG LP121X04 (12'', 1024x768), or the Samsung LTN121XF-L01, which both work with the same NJYTouch controller program. How big is your tablet by the way?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 18, 2011, 07:35:06 PM
Thank you very much, this one of the most helpful comunities. I have a intuos 3 a4 standart size. I am very new on this tablet modding, im not sure what is FFC connector, im assuming its the brown thing behind the panel. I will be more than happy if you can give the link. I hope they have international shipping beause im in Turkey.  I would buy one if it will cost lover than 40$ including shipment.

 Are you satisfied with the 1024x720 screen, i thought i would not have enough drawing space left.



Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 18, 2011, 07:51:24 PM
Hi, i found the site. But i dont know which FFC will help me, i have the datasheet of panel. Where should i look to understand which FFC i need.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on December 18, 2011, 08:23:18 PM
The Intuos3 A4 standard fits a 15'' screen with 4:3 ratio (NOT widescreen), so the Toshiba LTM15C166 panel will fit exactly.

Quote
Hi, i found the site. But i dont know which FFC will help me, i have the datasheet of panel. Where should i look to understand which FFC i need.

I've never had to use FFC extensions myself so i'm afraid i can't help much with that. You have to measure the cable yourself and look at the connector for how many pins it has and what is the pitch (distance between pins). FFC connectors come in many different sizes and shapes, so the trick is finding the correct one. Many users here have had to do this, you can look on this forum for build logs where this has happened, like This one. (http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1532.15) I've never had to order FFC extensions, but shipping should be very cheap because everything can fit inside a normal letter envelope. I'm in Bulgaria and shipping a whole LCD screen from eBay was around 20$.

Quote
Are you satisfied with the 1024x720 screen, i thought i would not have enough drawing space left.

1024x768 is perfect for a 12'' screen. The Torisan is 800x600, which is not very much, but i'd consider it the bare minimum for 12 inches. For your case it's a 15 inch screen and you may need something a little higher like 1280x960. The second screen you showed supports 1600x1200 which is more than enough, perhaps even too high if you have bad eyesight and can't see small letters.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 19, 2011, 07:47:31 PM
Should i also buy a PCB or is there a conventional way to conect FFC'ies?


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on December 20, 2011, 12:16:00 AM
You will need the PCB because FFC's don't have connectors on them, they are completely flat and you insert them into a socket like this:

(http://kyorune.com/modding/file.php?art=49&file=2)

You will actually need only 1x FFC and 1x PCB, but you can get a second FFC just in case, as a spare. They will also have to be long enough, of course.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: bernard on December 20, 2011, 12:19:12 AM
hey pesho, you did that animation? It's cool!  :)


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on December 20, 2011, 12:22:06 AM
Actually, i found it on a console modding website just now :P

http://kyorune.com/modding/article.php?id=49 (http://kyorune.com/modding/article.php?id=49)

Surprisingly effective for the case here!


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 21, 2011, 02:31:11 PM
Hi again, i bought another screen, its working, took a photo.

(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4491/20111221133513.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/20111221133513.jpg/)

It's thickness is about 6.5mm, 7mm.

(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9788/20111221135358.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/20111221135358.jpg/)

But this little plastic pieces make the thickness a little more, it should not be a very big problem i can cut them off. Or in which case i should rip it off. Because there will be nothing left to keep all layers in one piece.

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7449/20111221135327.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/20111221135327.jpg/)

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2424/20111221135453.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/20111221135453.jpg/)

The cable is 20pin 0.5mm
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5918/20111221134345.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/20111221134345.jpg/)

I'm gonna order 20pin 0.5mm pitch cable, and a PBC but i want to be sure more that it would work. Is there any more test should i do before advancing. For ex. there was a test that you should try the screen at top the tablet, if it doesnt work you try it under the tablet. What do i learn from that test? Should i unplug the FFC before i put it on top tablet, etc.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: Pesho on December 21, 2011, 09:27:06 PM
Great, you can try putting it on the tablet to check for reading height and jitter. Test it on areas that don't have any foil or PCB covering them though. Have in mind that you will have to put some protection on top of the screen such as 2mm glass or plexiglass.

Also, you should probably start your own build log thread, this current thread isn't the right place to be posting such stuff.


Title: Re: Starting out - To begin at the beginning.
Post by: sekopasa on December 21, 2011, 10:05:06 PM
Ok thanks for nice reply, i will try my thread but before that. Can you a little bit open

Quote
Test it on areas that don't have any foil or PCB covering them though.

or a link would help alot.

thanks again.