Bongofish

Screen Tablet malarky => Build Logs => Topic started by: ThrowingChicken on August 13, 2013, 11:21:13 PM



Title: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 13, 2013, 11:21:13 PM
A few years ago I picked up a used HP 2710p Tablet PC (http://i.imgur.com/dJLk2ja.jpg) after seeing the contestants on Project Runway use it for their designs.  I had never used a Cintiq or tablet PC before so I had no idea what worlds a penenabled display was about to open for me; Now using my old Graphire feels like the most awkward thing in the world.  

But as much as I love using the tablet to draw, the laptop's hardware is a little lacking.  It's not unusual to have to wait 15 minutes to open or save Photoshop files, and you can expect to sit back and wait for a change in zoom or location to process.  Meanwhile I have a perfectly capable, easily & cheaply upgradable desktop going to waste.

So that is what brings me here!  I needed to replace my display assembly so I negotiated to get a couple of whole assemblies for cheap; I am using the old one for the experimentation process, and the other is being reserved for the final build.  

I do not know a whole lot about this stuff, just what I have been reading here for the past few days, most notably Trashie's thread (http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1870.msg13699#msg13699), so I am very much in favor of hearing anyone's thoughts on this.  Even if nothing comes of it hopefully whatever info I find can be added to the Wiki, which is lacking info on this particular tablet.  

(http://i.imgur.com/KPl5QhG.jpg)
Here is the disassembled assembly.  The circuitry had foil shielding over it that I had to peal off.  

(http://i.imgur.com/Fx9JZak.jpg)
Digitizer label.  I tried contacting Wacom to see if they could offer up any info on it.  The US office pointed me to the Japanese office, who I have yet to hear anything back from.  In the meantime the US office contacted me a second time telling me they asked around and discovered they are now allowed to share any information about it due to agreements with HP.  I don't expect to ever hear from the JP office, but who knows.  

(http://i.imgur.com/Wg3fJ0k.jpg)
Panel label.  Before purchasing the assemblies I searched Google to try and find out if I could obtain a controller board for the panel, my results telling me it was a Samsung panel, which the controller board people said they could support.  Well now that I have mine cracked open, it clearly isn't a Samsung.  The initial controller shop could not support this 40pin LVDS connector, so what I thought was going to be the easiest part of the conversion suddenly put the whole project in jeopardy.  After a few days of emailing I found a seller that claims their M.NT68676.2A controller kit will work.  I am still hesitant about it, but they say they are certain.  I have not yet cracked open the assembly I am saving for the final build, but with my luck I'm half expecting to do so and find out it's actually Samsung or something else.  

(http://i.imgur.com/85tOUGA.jpg)
The Wacom board.  As expected from Trashie's build, the ZD1 is not there.  On the plus side the connector is 14 pin and others have seem to have luck with them.

(http://i.imgur.com/QFINlKq.jpg)
The original cable.  It splits off to the left for the digitizer and to the right for the LCD.  

(http://i.imgur.com/6aWmmUB.jpg)
The covering on the cable pealed back.  Already we are seeing some differences from Trashie's tablet.

(http://i.imgur.com/1GLYpw4.jpg)
The pin layout is different, for better or worse that remains to be seen, but it does rule out me being able to just follow his build.  As you can see there are two groups of wires, on the left we have wires coming from 5 & 6, and on the right we have a group of five coming from pins 9-13 (perhaps the four USB lines?).  Then to confound things even more...

(http://i.imgur.com/bANpFlG.jpg)
You peal back the covering even more to find out the wires from pins 5 & 6 don't even go anywhere!  At first I thought I tore them by accident, nope, nor were they ever connected to each other like a jumper cable.  I did notice that the fabric sleeve has what looks to be copper wire woven into it; are these likely some sort of ground lines?  Like I said, I don't know too much about this stuff so please let me know what you think.  

(http://i.imgur.com/fhMwxXV.jpg)
The rest of these are just close ups for the board.  Here is the connector.  

(http://i.imgur.com/txvvQ9a.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/jtXdpgE.jpg)

So what do you all think?  Does this look like a simple USB + diode job or something much different?  

Thanks for looking, and again, advice is appreciated.  



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 14, 2013, 02:41:13 AM
Welcome!

LCD: you tried njytouch?

Penenabled: you saw our wiki page?http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:penenabled This is most likely a serial (ISDV4) board. WaxBee with a Teensy with a 3.3v regulator is probably your best bet.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 14, 2013, 03:24:11 AM
Thanks for having me, I'm excited to see what comes of this and what I learn.

LCD:  Njytouch said they couldn't do it.  Fibica and Notebookaid said they can support it.  The Fibica controller seems to be the way to go, their controller has more options and is far cheaper than the one Notebookaid offers. 

Wiki:  Yes that is the one I am referring to.  I couldn't find this particular tablet while searching the forum either so hopefully it helps someone. 

Serial:  Darn, I was kind of hoping it would be as simple as Trashie's, but if it's doable as serial then I'm up for trying to make it work.  Do you have any recommendations for build threads or tutorials that will help me better understand where I need to go from here?

Thanks! 



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 14, 2013, 03:54:29 AM
According to which pins are connected, it looks like serial ( refer to the wiki page 14pin pinout table). There seem to be variants between boards, but nothing major enough to have the USB elsewhere. It seems boards are either serial or USB. Nobody was succesful in trying to use the board differently than how it was connected. Some people dtruggled to "enable" the digitizer to make it spit out its data.

If you are willing to try it, I think you should get the material for Waxbee and we can try it out. (Unless you already have some other equipment that can interface a UART at 3.3v or  access to an oscilloscope. (You can construct one with a sound card btw.)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 14, 2013, 04:12:19 AM
Sure, I already have the panels might as well go for it.  I will need some guidance though.  

Presumably to interface I am going to need the Teensy loaded with Waxbee anyway, right?  I don't have the other equipment so that seems the way to go.  This is the first time I've heard of Teensy and Waxbee.  Looking at Teensy I see there are three different types;  does it matter which one I get?  I see the new 3.0 version is already 3.3v, is that the way to go, is that irrelevant for this use or am I potentially boxing myself into a corner with the lower voltage?

Also, what do I make of pins 5-6?   

Thanks!


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 14, 2013, 03:33:27 PM
Teensy: You have to get exactly the same part. It's the Teensy 2.0 (not the ++) along with its 1$ 3.3v regulator. The newer Teensy 3.0 is great but it is a completely different beast.

We had varying success interfacing those digitizers. Some tinkering might be required. Is your tablet can still function? (I mean if you carefully reconnect all the parts and make sure there are no short circuit?)

I forgot to ask: can you solder? Do you have a multimeter?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 14, 2013, 05:20:16 PM
The Teensy 2.0 and the regulator are added to my cart.  Is there anything else I might need from this particular vendor? 

My tablet assembly functioned when I removed it from from the laptop (I replaced it just because a couple of areas had some slight calibration issues but it works otherwise), and the one I am saving for the final build was tested as well.  I can hook it back up if need be, though I'd like to avoid having to take the laptop apart again if possible. 

I can solder and I have a basic multimeter (like Harbor Freight basic). 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 15, 2013, 04:26:44 AM
Teensy: u are all set.

We will keep tearing apart the laptop as a last resort only.  ;D

Think how you are going to connect those pins to the digitizer. If you do not want to destroy your cable and cannot find another one, then you'll have to solder directly on the board. Using a bare connector tend to be difficult to use without a special 4K$ crimping tool.
To solder in dense areas, you can get yourself a roll of thin wire (28..30-ish gauge). Those are easy to find if you get the wire-wrap ones. Hot glue is great to secure those easy to break thin wires.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 15, 2013, 05:33:39 AM
Alright, all ordered.  Will probably be here sometime early next week.

In the meantime, anything you can tell me about what I'd need to do once it gets here?  What pins on the Wacom need to go to what pins on the Teensy? 

I don't have a problem cutting up the original cable.  If I end up having to open the laptop back up I'll have to solder the lines back together so I can hook it up but I'm sure it will be fine. 



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 15, 2013, 05:57:23 PM
The tinkering is about which lines needs to be activated to enable the digitizer. Probing it with a multimeter while in use is a good way to know.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 16, 2013, 12:17:31 AM
Well in that case, since I'll have a few days before the Teensy gets here, maybe I will open the laptop back up and put the assembly back in there to see if I can get some readings. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 16, 2013, 03:19:39 AM
Am I correct in believe I can use DGND to find the ground pins? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 16, 2013, 05:36:25 AM
Alright, so I hooked the assembly back up to the laptop and these are the results, hopefully it formats right:

               Pin: 1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14
             Wired: G               X   X           X    X    X    X    X    G
Voltage when still: 0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  4v   4v    0   4v   4v    0
  Voltage with pen:                    4v          3v
(no change unless noted)

And to note again, the wires coming from pins 5 and 6 do not go anywhere, the wires are cut after about 2 inches even though power is coming from 6 when a pen is on it.  

Does this tell us anything?  


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 16, 2013, 03:14:01 PM
Yay! I assume you did that after it was working - I mean the mouse cursor could move when moving the pen. In other words the digitizer was turned on.

This will help us.

One thing here: it would be good that you connect the pin 8 - this is to send commands to the digitizer. (Not absolutely necessary but might help to diagnose or discover the max x/y values and the correct baud rate).


EDIT: pin 8 is not the good one -- it is pin 10 and it already have a wire (yay!)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: kaikaisushi on August 16, 2013, 04:39:20 PM
awesome :o


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 16, 2013, 05:18:52 PM
I would probably have to solder a wire to pin 8 but I can give it a try. 

Did the voltage values help at all?  Is it odd that I am getting 4v instead of 3.3v? 
I still have the laptop opened up and the digitizer hooked up; are there anymore values I should try to get?  I'd rather not having to take the laptop apart again, so if you can think of anything I should test now would be the best time to do it. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 16, 2013, 05:37:33 PM
I've just read how you've been getting on with this and it seems to be going quite well so far, i wish you luck!

Am i right in thinking that you measured 4volts until the pen was placed close to the digitizer when you then read 3volts? This sounds about right as it is likely you were measuring the voltages without a load, since the digitizer is only fully switched on when the pen comes into proximity (assuming it operates as per the intuos/bamboo range).

Look forward to see how you get on.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 16, 2013, 06:10:51 PM
Thanks!  Admittedly electronics are not my strong suit so the fun won't really begin for me until I start working on the case; I think that is the part I am most excited about since I like to build crazy things (https://www.facebook.com/ThrowingChicken/photos_albums?ref=hl).  Well that and actually using the tablet with my desktop.

I'd say that voltage assessment is partially true.  I had zero readings on all of the pins except for 9 (which isn't hooked up to my laptops motherboard I am a dummy, it is connected after all), 10, 12, and 13 (they all read 4v).  When I put the pen to the tablet I get a 4v reading on pin 6 (which initially ran zero and is also not hooked up to the mobo), and pin 9 changes from 4v to 3v.  None of the other voltages change.  I am using just a cheap analog multimeter from Harbor Freight so I suppose it could not be giving me the best readings, but I would imagine there would be at least some slight movements with the needle if the voltage was changing with the use of the pen but I am just not seeing it on pins 10, 12, & 13.  


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 17, 2013, 03:35:38 AM
USPS says the Teensy might be here tomorrow!  Once it gets here, in what order should I hook up the pins to it?  Is there a good tutorial available? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 17, 2013, 04:33:53 AM
Warning: Huge post.

Nomenclature:
"high" means closer to VCC (3.3v or 4v in your case).
"low" means close to 0v/GND/ground level.

huh, did you just said that pin 9 (RXD) is *not* connected to the mobo?  According to other serial boards, this is supposed to be the main serial data pin. (From the tablet to the PC). It is supposed to be "high" until there is some data upon which it goes low for split seconds -- your multimeter will "combine" all the high-low levels and thus give you something a little lower than the normal "high" (here your 4v going to 3v).  If you had a "scope" you would see UART data (pulses going down) -- also with a "scope" you could measure the size of each pulse and we could compute the serial port baud rate instantly.  

Hum a (oscillo)scope... Since you like building strange (and real cool btw) stuff, you might get tempted by the dark side of electronics... Anyways.

I was wrong about pin 8 in my earlier post (no need to solder anything there, very sorry!).  It is pin 10 that is the TXD that we need. This should thus be "high" almost 100% of the time. (Until we start sending commands to the tablet, something that almost never occur during normal operation -- only when the "driver" initializes to query the tablet).

For tutorials -- not much for serial ISDV4 actually -- Or you'd have to dig posts on this forums from people that tried this. Most of the tutorials are for interfacing with the non-penenabled wacom serial and ADB digitizers.

First you gonna need to make sure the Teensy you got works. That made me think :  You have a spare mini-usb cable (http://www.qpscable.com/public/images/mini-usb.jpg), don't you?   You are gonna need this.   So first thing is to plug it in naked and see its led blink.   Next step (unplug it) is to solder the 3.3v regulator (there is a trace to cut and a solder-jumper to do I believe -- follow the instructions from http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/3volt.html ).  When all done, replug the Teensy should still blink. Use your multimeter and with the black on a GND pin, probe the voltages, you should be able to get 3.3v on the VCC pin(s) (there are two of those, pick the pins away from the connector, it is more convenient). There is enough Amps left to power your digitizer from this 3.3v output.

On the Teensy there are basically 4 wires that are going to be needed. GND, 3.3v (VCC), TXD(D3) and RXD(D2). It is always a bit tricky to know which is which when connecting TXD and RXD. Labels for UARTS are always a mess. You have to know the "direction". Look at our wiki to see the direction (tablet --> host  or  tablet <-- host) and from the Teensy side, "TXD" or "TD" means "Transmit Data" and "RXD" or "RD" means "Receive Data". Make a small drawing on a napkin and double check.  You can check the "tutorial-like" instructions and picture of the Teensy in this post http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1930.msg14217#msg14217 to help you out.

Speaking of wires, I try to use black for ground, red for power (VCC) and other colors for the rest. When I see a red wire I stay away and a black wire is easy to spot when looking for a ground signal. But, of course, for a 4 wire project, it does not really matter, you can even put little stickers onto the wire with names on it. (i.e. GND, VCC, TXD, RXD)

BTW, when you are done, it would be nice to have a connection summary with a couple of pictures of the finished stuff to help out the next folks that want to do this.

Warning: These small wires are not always easy to solder on. If these are the micro-coaxial types you are not going to be able to do anything with them. We tried hard.  Try to skin and solder onto the ones that are not connected before cutting the other ones.  You'll see immediately if it works on not. (use your multimeter to check the continuity).

BTW, your multimeter is analog right? (with a needle): Does it have the continuity test (often with a beep for the digital ones, but it would work with a "OhmMeter" function too).  If unsure, attach a picture (or a link to a picture of a similar model), detailed enough so I can read the letters.  Also can it measure Amps? (in the 20-200 mAmps range -- that's milliAmperes or 0.02 to 0.2 Amps (also written as just "A" or "mA"))-- of course the voltages are below 5 volts.  When doing some tinkering it is always good to keep an eye on the amount of current the board is taking. If there is a short or something is wrong, the Amps will go high -- very high! Looking at the Amps reading can "talk" to you. It tells you what the digitizer is doing. For example, when approach a pen, the amps will go up, when you move the pen away, it will stay high for like a second or two and then go down in "idle" mode.  To measure Amps, you have to connect the leads "in serial" (like the power must go "through" the multimeter). mAmps numbers should vary from 0 (powered off) to under 100mAmps roughly like 80mAmps or even lower. Anyways. Without that, just quickly touch the big black Wacom chips to check if they seem to be burning-hot -- do this quickly after powering it up. You can also just power it for less than a second and check if anything became hot.  Watch out static electricity,  Always "ground" yourself before to discharge the static electricity in your body (like touching the USB connector in the case of the Teensy).


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 17, 2013, 05:09:58 AM
Actually you are absolutely right, I have no idea how I got it in my head that 9 was not connected.  Looking back at my previous photo its 5 wires, pins 9-13.  Sorry for the confusion, I will update my chart. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 17, 2013, 05:16:25 AM
Pin 13 is definitely the VCC 3.3v power. On the Wacom PCB, the trace is much larger than the others (which is typical for power and ground). You need to connect this to the Teensy VCC (where you previously read 3.3v after the voltage conversion mod).

Pin 14 looks like a ground -- but because the DGND is connected to it -- it might be why it is not connected -- From what I can gather, DGND is a "Digital Ground" and is typically more "noisy" than a AGND (Analog) -- or plain GND. The ground must be going elsewhere.   I see "AGND" on the board. Check on which pin it is connected to (did you said you had a continuity or if not, Ohm-meter capability? -- btw -- *never* test continuity/ohm on a *powered* board. For connecting to the Teensy GND, both will most likely work, I think I prefer AGND, but anything that would already have a connection through the cable is much more convenient of course. -- I think AGND is normally Pin 1, right?  

Then Pin 9 and 10 to the Teensy D2 / D3 (still have to figure out which goes where exactly). If you "reverse the polarity" it is not going to burn anything, but it is not "great" to keep it reversed for long time.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 17, 2013, 05:36:38 AM
Pin 11 and 12 always been quite mysterious and contradictory. From your readings, it seems there is only 1 pin that is connected that stays low all the time (pin 11)  --  why did you put the letter "G" for pin 1 and 14?  You meant "Ground" I suppose(?).    In the laptop, was there anything else connected to either digitizer boards that would ground them?

To be on the safe side, I would find a good connection to AGND (that's pin 1, right?) and use that as our ground to the Teensy. I do not really trust pin 11 to carry the main ground.

EDIT: I took the liberty of modifying your small "voltage table" with a monofont tag (teletype "tt") -- I used a text editor with a monospace font (courrier) to align stuff and copy-pasted it back.  8)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 17, 2013, 05:55:03 AM
Added an entry for your tablet in the wiki page. If you happen to have more technical and physical info about the board to fill in the blanks, it would be great to keep around.
http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:penenabled


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 17, 2013, 07:14:31 AM
Hum a (oscillo)scope... Since you like building strange (and real cool btw) stuff, you might get tempted by the dark side of electronics...
Thanks!  And I will keep that in mind.  I remember seeing one at a science exhibit as a kid and loving the effect.  In the meantime, if you think it would help with the build I might see if I can track down someone nearby that has one.  

Quote
I was wrong about pin 8 in my earlier post (no need to solder anything there, very sorry!).  It is pin 10 that is the TXD that we need. This should thus be "high" almost 100% of the time. (Until we start sending commands to the tablet, something that almost never occur during normal operation -- only when the "driver" initializes to query the tablet).

Oh good, I was worried about having to solder something so small!  And yes, pin 10 reads high the whole time, at least during the operations I was performing.  

Quote
First you gonna need to make sure the Teensy you got works. That made me think :  You have a spare mini-usb cable (http://www.qpscable.com/public/images/mini-usb.jpg), don't you?   You are gonna need this.   So first thing is to plug it in naked and see its led blink.   Next step (unplug it) is to solder the 3.3v regulator (there is a trace to cut and a solder-jumper to do I believe -- follow the instructions from http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/3volt.html ).  When all done, replug the Teensy should still blink. Use your multimeter and with the black on a GND pin, probe the voltages, you should be able to get 3.3v on the VCC pin(s) (there are two of those, pick the pins away from the connector, it is more convenient). There is enough Amps left to power your digitizer from this 3.3v output.
Great pictorial!  Looks simple enough.  

Quote
It is always a bit tricky to know which is which when connecting TXD and RXD. Labels for UARTS are always a mess. You have to know the "direction". Look at our wiki to see the direction (tablet --> host  or  tablet <-- host) and from the Teensy side, "TXD" or "TD" means "Transmit Data" and "RXD" or "RD" means "Receive Data".

But because we see highs and lows on pin 9 with pen activity, this is most likely RXD because this pin is sending data out to the computer, right?  

Quote
You can check the "tutorial-like" instructions and picture of the Teensy in this post http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=1930.msg14217#msg14217 to help you out.
Oh yes, it looks like you are working with a whole different beast there but it helps me understand what the different pins are doing on both Teensy and the tablet.  

Quote
BTW, when you are done, it would be nice to have a connection summary with a couple of pictures of the finished stuff to help out the next folks that want to do this.
I will supply you guys with everything I have.  Even though my digitizer is not the same as others, just the fact that people were doing this with others is what got me to take up the challenge (and for me, this is a challenge).  This place is great and I'd love to contribute.  

Quote
If these are the micro-coaxial types you are not going to be able to do anything with them. We tried hard.  Try to skin and solder onto the ones that are not connected before cutting the other ones.  You'll see immediately if it works on not. (use your multimeter to check the continuity).
Never heard of these before, but it got me worried enough to test it.  I cut off a segment from one of the unused lines and soldered the ends to another wire.  We are good to go.  
(http://i.imgur.com/y8Tpjei.png)

Quote
BTW, your multimeter is analog right? (with a needle): Does it have the continuity test (often with a beep for the digital ones, but it would work with a "OhmMeter" function too).  If unsure, attach a picture (or a link to a picture of a similar model), detailed enough so I can read the letters.
I think?  It's the thing I use to test for a closed circuit, right?  This is mine right here. (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/827298786/SP_110_Analog_Multimeter.html)

Quote
Also can it measure Amps?
I believe so.  It has a DmA setting.

Quote
To measure Amps, you have to connect the leads "in serial" (like the power must go "through" the multimeter).
So while experimenting, it would probably be best to use some sort of connector instead of soldering the lines directly to the board, that way I can move things around and splice in the multimeter easily.  Do I need a multimeter for each of the four wires to watch for spikes or do I only need it on one wire?

Quote
Pin 14 looks like a ground -- but because the DGND is connected to it -- it might be why it is not connected -- From what I can gather, DGND is a "Digital Ground" and is typically more "noisy" than a AGND (Analog) -- or plain GND. The ground must be going elsewhere.   I see "AGND" on the board. Check on which pin it is connected to..... .....For connecting to the Teensy GND, both will most likely work, I think I prefer AGND, but anything that would already have a connection through the cable is much more convenient of course. -- I think AGND is normally Pin 1, right?  
I just tested it and the results are that both pin 1 and pin 14 are connected to AGND and DGND, which I guess would also mean AGND and DGND are connected.  I scanned the board looking for another pad but I am not seeing a plain GND.

Quote
Pin 11 and 12 always been quite mysterious and contradictory. From your readings, it seems there is only 1 pin that is connected that stays low all the time (pin 11)
That is correct, I didn't get any readings on it at all.  

Quote
why did you put the letter "G" for pin 1 and 14?  You meant "Ground" I suppose(?).
Yes, G meant that it was connected to the DGND pad (and now we know, the AGND pad as well).

Quote
In the laptop, was there anything else connected to either digitizer boards that would ground them?
Hrmmm, there are these pads were the screws go on the connector that plugs into the motherboard.  I can get a connection between them and the GND pads.  

(http://i.imgur.com/ojJatkb.png)

I played around with it a little more and I know pin 1 and 14 make contact with the silver housing the connector slides into.  That conductive fabric is attached to the housing, so I initially thought this was how the ground was transferred, so to test this I pealed it back so it no longer touches the metal at all, yet I still get a connection between this housing and the end of the cord (where it connects to the laptop).  So now, really, I have no idea how the connection is extending the length of the cable.  Maybe once I strip the wires something will start to make sense.  What do you think?  

Thanks for the help, I will follow the Teensy instructions when it gets here.  




Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 17, 2013, 06:57:36 PM
Ground: The outershell of the cable?  It does not really matter how it works in the laptop. What matters is that you find a good ground for your purpose that is well connected to the AGND/DGND. Maybe soldering onto the pin 14 ? It looks like a nice spot to solder a wire.

Scope: You do not really need it. Only if we run into trouble and we try to diagnose what is happening. We'll know only after you power up the digitizer using a 3.3v source.

Quote
But because we see highs and lows on pin 9 with pen activity, this is most likely RXD because this pin is sending data out to the computer, right?

yup.

Quote
I think?  It's the thing I use to test for a closed circuit, right?

yes -- I call this a "continuity test" (to see if something is connected with another thing). I looked  at your multimeter and you have the Ohm meter (that Omega symbol on the top left). Again, never use this mode with a powered circuit. Probably any value is fine, but I would pick the highest setting 1K. Touch the probes to see the effect of a "closed circuit".

Amps: yes, you have a DCmA -- which means "Direct Current milli-Amperes" -- this only works on DC current -- which is what we are dealing with here.  Pick the 500 setting if you make that test (as in "500mA").

Quote
So while experimenting, it would probably be best to use some sort of connector instead of soldering the lines directly to the board, that way I can move things around and splice in the multimeter easily.  Do I need a multimeter for each of the four wires to watch for spikes or do I only need it on one wire?
I use colored crocodile clips wires to perform temporary electronic setup. Like tie wraps, I never have enough of these. They are easy to find even in local electronic shops (if you know one nearby, call them to see if they have something in stock) ;D (http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/551368531/Free-shipping-10pcs-Double-ended-font-b-Crocodile-b-font-Alligator-font-b-Clips-b-font.jpg)  You are probably going to be fine with a single multimeter. The only thing would be to have another one to watch for the amps at all times as a "safety", but it is not really necessary.  If you have a really bad short and you send a lot of current, it could burn before you can notice it anyways.  The much better safety is to use a "lab" power supply -- which you can limit the current to the minimum.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 18, 2013, 03:27:13 AM
Alright, I am all wired up.  Do I need to load something onto the Teensy before plugging it in? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 18, 2013, 09:30:28 AM
I am not so confident I have found my ground.  The amps seem off the chart on the meter.  If I had to, what if I soldered a line directly to the DGND pad?  It seems to be more out of the way than the AGND one. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 18, 2013, 10:34:38 PM
So I am pulling 1.1Amps between the Teensy and the digitizer, which is a far cry from the 80mA we were told to expect.  I tested the digitizer and Teensy and both to seem to function just fine.  Are we sure 80mA is correct?  If 1.1Amps is possible, what kind of stress will this be putting on the Teensy board/regulator? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 19, 2013, 03:31:54 AM
Boy what a rough day.  Here is the rundown. 

- Teensy regulator is in place, wires have been soldered.
- Wires connecting to pins 9, 10, 13, and ground have been soldered or stripped, connected to the Teensy with clip wires.
- Multimeter is connected in series between VCC and pin 13. 
- No matter what I do the multimeter reads ~1.1Amps. 
- Took an extra interface cable and spliced in the Multimeter on the line going to pin 13, plugged the cable into the laptop in efforts to figure out the native amp measurement.
- Multimeter read around 1Amp, the wire ran hot.  In the brief moment it was on we were unable to get the tablet to recognize the stylus.
- Soldered back together the wire going to pin 13 in efforts to retest the display.  Wire ran hot, melted the electrical tape. 

And on a slightly unrelated/related note:
- Removed the experimental digitizer and reconnected the permanent assembly only to find that my laptop would not boot up.
- Windows repair disabled the digitizer driver.
- Windows boots up, no pen abilities. 
- Reinstall drivers, no installation fails
- Try again
- Try again
- Try again
- Try again, installation successful.  Pen abilities back.
- Open Photoshop, digitizer driver crashes.  No pen sensitivity. 
- Try again
- Try again
- Reboot, try again
-  Try again
- Reinstall drivers again, successful, Photoshop and pen sensitivity successful.  Everything seems to be working now.

So what do I make of all this?  I think the experimental digitizer is probably fine.  I think the short was taking place somewhere between laptop and the digitizer connector, somewhere in the cables, based on the heat coming off the cable instead of the digitizer board, and the way my laptop was acting after the test.  I won't be taking my laptop apart again.  Besides sacrificing the cable in hopes to measure the digitizers native current; I don't want to risk messing up my laptop again.  My old laptop digitizer is better than no digitizer at all. 

But I'm not done yet.  I believe there is a short somewhere, some how, between these supposedly insulated cables.  The next thing I plan to do is put shrink tube over all of the wires coming from the pins, the full length of the wire.  If that is where the short originating, as I believe, then that should take care of it.  If that doesn't work then I am going to lose the wires and the connector and solder leads directly to the pins.  And if that doesn't work, then, well, I'm at a loss. 

Thoughts? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 19, 2013, 03:55:04 AM
Hum. Wow. What a ride! Amps at 3v is not the same at 5v. I might have given you the 5v numbers, but 1.1amp is 1100 mA which is really over the roof. No wonder something was hot. The 3.3v regulator must have been limiting (switching on and off) or plain running hot.

If you see more than  250mA disconnect immediately and I would be a bit worried over 150mA. If pulling a lot of current, this might even harm your computer if you are connected to it - typically it will protect itself by either shutting down the power or limiting the current (for this USB port or all) or doing an immediate emergency power off of the whole computer.

The cable outer shell might be "conductive" (for EMI insulation and static protection). Each bluish wire seem to have its own insulation. While powered off, test all connections with your multimeter. Test for "shorts" between seemingly unconnected wires.

Have you touched the chips to see if any was hot? Regulator and all cpus and Wacom chips?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 19, 2013, 04:04:23 AM
I don't think the digitizer ever got hot, and while the Teensy may have, I've since tested it and it runs fine.  I can't test the digitizer again since I clipped the cable, so I'll have to move forward assuming the digitizer still works.  If push comes to shove I can test the set up on the second digitizer that I am saving for the final.

So looking at these wire, they look like enamel.  I was talking to a friend and he says that a lot of times enamel is used to build up capacitance, but because of that it could potentially short if it is next to the ground wire.  Does that sound right to you?

My uncle came by to look over this with me; he worked in electronics before retiring.  He took a look at the connector and he thinks he can see a metal rod connecting pin 14 to the metal part of the connector, which is connected to the conductive sleeve.  So he thinks the sleeve acts as the ground.  The inside of this sleeve is coated with enamel or something so it isn't conductive on the inside. 

Yeah I don't know.  I can try going directly to pin 14 and if that keeps resulting in high current then maybe I should try pin 11? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 19, 2013, 04:10:26 AM
Another trick of the trade: if you have a can of dust buster (compressed air) you can turn it upside down while slightly pressing the nozzle to let a few drop of the liquid get out. This will freeze instantly anything (don't put your finger!) and you can put that on a circuit to cool the chips to attempt to protect them. Of course, if you have a can of "freeze" then it is better. It is okay to pour while powered, (low voltage only).

Test with the cable unconnected to the digitizer. (I understand you clipped it but it is still good advice). This would check for shorts in the cable alone).

Kudos to your uncle.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 19, 2013, 04:19:41 AM
Also start by connecting the ground and power alone. Test at every step in any way you can. You are on a mine field.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 19, 2013, 05:04:02 AM
Enamel? No clue there. These custom cables are built to be inexpensive. As always for mass production, they use weird (but proven) tricks to save money and time while ensuring maximal EMI protection for CE/ULC conformance. My guess is that the blue thing is just an ultra-thin insulator. The 'cable' looks like a sandwich assembly of some sort of transparent plastic insulator where the wires run inside cut to shape overlaid with an electrically conductive/sticky sheet cut slightly bigger to connect to the connector case metal portion.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 19, 2013, 05:39:23 AM
I'll keep working at it until it's either dead or working. 

Assuming I start getting reasonable current levels, what do I need to load onto the Teensy to test the conversion? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 19, 2013, 12:26:05 PM
Hey there ThrowingChicken, any chance of getting some photos of how you have it wired so that we can see if you have made a mistake somewhere?

Also I've been looking at the digitizer circuit from your photos but there's bits i can't see properly, any chance of getting a close shot from above and a close shot of the underside (as some of the traces go through vias).

I have to second what Bernard said about exceeding 250mA, there's no way that the teensy and circuit should use more than that, 1100mA is far to high and extremely likely to cause permanent damage.

Also, I'm a bit confused about what you are doing here, am i right in thinking that you have a screen with a digitizer built in that you wish to put in a case and use as a diy Cintiq? I presume if this is the case that you want to power the digitizer from the USB of your laptop, but how will you power the LCD? Or is this going to be a laptop Cintiq all in one?

Wait, you mentioned getting an lvds controller so I'm guessing my first thought is right.

So my next question follows that, if you are using the cable with the thin blue wires depicted at the beginning of this thread to power the screen, did you cut the wires which branch off to the digitizer before powering up the teensy? My thought being that you are shorting the teensy through the motherboard of the laptop which is why the current is high and the wire gets hot.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 19, 2013, 06:53:18 PM
Hey there ThrowingChicken, any chance of getting some photos of how you have it wired so that we can see if you have made a mistake somewhere?

Sure thing!

Teensy Side:
(http://i.imgur.com/56mWRfe.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fMiX01r.jpg)

Digitizer Side:
(http://i.imgur.com/ac6VtFW.jpg)
Ground line coming from the metal housing.

(http://i.imgur.com/bZs2fu5.jpg)
Red = Pin 13 = VCC.  Two unconnected lines, pins 12 & 11, taped at the end.  White = Pins 10 & 9 = TX/RX.  Green = Ground.  

(http://i.imgur.com/lUSRd3d.jpg)

I had my multimeter in line on the VCC line when  I was getting such high current ratings.  


Quote
Also I've been looking at the digitizer circuit from your photos but there's bits i can't see properly, any chance of getting a close shot from above and a close shot of the underside (as some of the traces go through vias).

Sure.  I can't get the bottom side, though, as it is glued down to the backing.  I am afraid I will break it trying to pry it up.  If you think it will be okay separating it I will try to give it a go but it is on there pretty well.

(http://i.imgur.com/l21YPoL.jpg)


Quote
I have to second what Bernard said about exceeding 250mA, there's no way that the teensy and circuit should use more than that, 1100mA is far to high and extremely likely to cause permanent damage.
Because we didn't have a successful test when it drew that much current, I am inclined to believe 1100mA is too high too.  I think a USB is only supposed to pull under 500, it just doesn't add up to me.  There must have been a short somewhere, right?  

Quote
Also, I'm a bit confused about what you are doing here, am i right in thinking that you have a screen with a digitizer built in that you wish to put in a case and use as a diy Cintiq? I presume if this is the case that you want to power the digitizer from the USB of your laptop, but how will you power the LCD? Or is this going to be a laptop Cintiq all in one?

Wait, you mentioned getting an lvds controller so I'm guessing my first thought is right.
DIY Cintiq, yes.  Assuming I can get the digitizer to work through USB, I will be purchasing the LVDS controller and packaging it all in a case so I can use it on my desktop.  

Quote
So my next question follows that, if you are using the cable with the thin blue wires depicted at the beginning of this thread to power the screen, did you cut the wires which branch off to the digitizer before powering up the teensy? My thought being that you are shorting the teensy through the motherboard of the laptop which is why the current is high and the wire gets hot.
The wires were cut, as shown above, but I have never run the Teensy and the laptop at the same time.  None of my tests with the Teensy involve the LCD cables.  I have tested the digitizer & LCD on my laptop using an extra cable.  In the final test my uncle and I wanted to figure out the current that the digitizer draws natively, so we opened the wire and put the multimeter on the line going to pin 13, but I believe we caused a short somehow since it ran high again, caused tape to melt, and messed up my laptop.  But the Teensy was not involved in that test.  

I hope this helps.  If you have any other questions or suggestions please let me know.  


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 20, 2013, 05:50:13 AM
What is your next step now?

I'll repeat that you need to do baby steps or test the smallest, most separated parts that you can. Disconnect as much wires as possible.

Is your meter functionning correctly when testing DCmAmps? It is not introducing a short?

I see that metallic-looking foil under the digitizer connector -- is this conductive?




Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 20, 2013, 06:49:19 AM
What is your next step now?

I'll repeat that you need to do baby steps or test the smallest, most separated parts that you can. Disconnect as much wires as possible.
Pretty much this.  I might even try seeing what happens when the Teensy is hooked to the cable, but the cable isn't plugged in.  Pending on the results of that...

 - Shrink tubing over all the wires, entire length of the wires.  

 - Replacing the wires, soldering directly to the pins.

*shrug*

Would there be an issue if I soldered a wire directly to the DGND pad?    

Quote
Is your meter functionning correctly when testing DCmAmps? It is not introducing a short?
I get high readings with two different meters.  Plus the meter wasn't hooked up when the wire got so hot it melted electric tape.  

Quote
I see that metallic-looking foil under the digitizer connector -- is this conductive?
No, though I suppose there could be a coating over it.  

I'll probably have a chance to play around with it tomorrow. If I can get reasonable mAs, which Waxbee hex file do I need to add to the Teensy to test function?  The  USB virtual serial port 2011?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 20, 2013, 02:48:41 PM
Teensy: yeah, use the virtual serial port loaded with the Teensy Loader. Follow host setup http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/usb_serial.html and get a "terminal emulator". Realterm, putty in serial mode or teraterm. None is perfect.

No  parity, 8 bits, 1 stop bit. Half duplex or echo on to see what you are typing. Possible baud rates: 38400 or 19200. Note that this virtual serial port only supports 3 speeds (9600 being the other one). The virtual serial port running on the Teensy will "respond" a number upon baud rate change to confirm it understood the baud rate.

Soldering on the pad is no problem. Watch out not to put too much heat - it can lift pads and traces off the PCB. If out of pads you can try to "scratch" a connecting trace to expose the metal to solder on.

Do you have a looking glass? You could inspect the board for unwanted "jumpers" or crossover connections.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 20, 2013, 07:27:50 PM
Quick update:  When bypass the connector and go straight for the pins I'm getting around 50mA.  Sounds reasonable. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 20, 2013, 10:14:53 PM
I am soldered directly to the pins, steady around 50mA.  When I put the pin close or on the digitizer it jumps to around 130mA and holds there for a second before going back to around 50mA.

I might be totally lost about the terminal stuff.  Tera Term seems to be the most basic.  I've figured out how to set up all of your options for that except for half duplex or echo (not finding the option).  But I will set up what I can and hit OK, the baud number I entered will show up on the display.  That's about as far as I have gotten with it.  Am I supposed to send it files, or tell it to send me something? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 01:26:34 AM
I was able to get the board up.  When I looked down the small gap with a flashlight I could see it was just tape holding it down.  Pretty strong stuff, but I took it slowly and used a business card to slice through the tape fibers until it was apart. 

(http://i.imgur.com/VR2XULm.jpg)

Here is the shot of the solder job onto the pins.  A little rough, but I checked and continuity is fine. 
(http://i.imgur.com/MRhkonS.jpg)

Based on how the amps are in a stable place and changing when the pen comes into contact I feel like we are on the right track, but as mentioned before I'm having trouble making sense of the virtual terminal stuff. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 01:34:06 AM
Send the command * .  (star). I mean just press star and potentially return. It should output a single line of text with important info. This is the ISDV4 protocol.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 02:43:09 AM
I'm just getting stuff like this.

9600
    19200
         À3À3òðÀÀ3òàÀ32øÀÀ3»À3>ÿÀ32À32àÀÿÀ32À3vðÀ32À32àÀ32 "*Hþ3~àÀ32 >À32 "*À36àÀ32`þÀ32 "äÀ32 "bÀ32 âÀ32òÀÀ3ò`âÀ32 "À32 "|ä"38400
                                                   ÿxü*0*üx`þpx`þf
                                                                  ðx`þf


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 02:47:18 AM
19200
         À32 ""À32


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 04:13:43 AM
With the pen in proximity, you will get this gibberrish stuff. Press 0 to stop it (and 1 to restart).

You are getting something and this is a good sign.

One thing you could try for kicks is to run the WaxbeeConfig tool and pick a ISDV4 template and just try it. (Program it in the teensy). Pick the debug version.

You can edit the configuration to change the baudrate.

Unplug the power to make sure to reset the digitizer. (I mean unplug/replug the USB plug).

The debug version is just for troubleshooting purposes and works with a tool called hid_listen that you can find here: http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/hid_listen.html
Run hid listen first then connect the USB. We want to catch the first few messages coming out of the teensy. Copy me the output.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 04:22:03 AM
...I just saw that 19200 bauds is the default speed in that ISDV4 debug template. 38400, I think, is a bit more common for recent Wacom serial digitizers.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 04:28:41 AM
Some quick notes, I was browsing the forum and saw you suggesting to someone to turn on the hex viewer in Realterm to see data coming from the digitizer.  When I do, I get stuff like this without the pen touching the digitizer

Quote
FEF700FEF300FEF300FF00FFF100FDFF00FEFFF300FEF100FEFFF300FFF300FFE100FFE0FEFF70FF
61FF71FFE100FFC0FE21FFFFF300E100FF73FFFFE100FFFFE100FFC3FEE100FFFF01FF21FF00FF00
FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF00FF0000FF00F8FF00FF00FF00FF00FF01
00FF01E0FF0300FF00C0FF00E0FF01F8FF0100FF00F8FFFF00C0FF00C0FFFF00FEFFFF00FEFFFF00
F8FFFF00FEFFFF00FCFFFF00FFFF00FF07FFFF00FEFF00FEFF00FEFF00FFFF00FF00FEFF00FF00FF
FB00FCFF00FFF900FF01FEFD00FEFD00FFFFFF00FFFF00FFFFF900F900FEFB00FFF000FFF000FFF9
00FFF900FE01FFF0FFF0FF11FF00FF00FF0000FFF8FF00FF0080FF00FF00FF00F0FF00FF00FF00FF
00C0FF00F8FF0080FF0080FF0080FF00F0FF00F0FFFF00F0FF00F0FFFF01F0FFFF00E0FFFF01F0FF
FF00F4FFFF00F0FFFF00F4FFFF00FCFFFF02F6FFFF00FEFFFF00FEFFFF00FEFFFF00FEFFFF00FEFF
00FEFFFF00FFFF00FEFFFF00FFFFFF00FFFFFF00FEFFFF00FEFF00FEFFFF00FEFFFF00FF00FEFF00
FEFF00FEFF00FEFF00FEFF00FF0000FFFF00FEFF00FF00FEFF00FEFF00FC00FEFF00FFFF00FE7F00
FFFF00FFFFFFFFFFFF00FF7D00FFFFFF3DFF3CFF7EFF00FF00FF06FFFF00FF00FF04FF00FF00FFFF
00FF00FF00FF00FFFF00FF0000FFFF00FFFF00FFFF0100FF02FF0088FFFF0080FFFF0100FF0080FF
FF0088FF0088F8FF0004FF0004FFFF0040FFFF0044FF0044F8FFFF0044FF0004FFFFFF0004FFFF00
C4FFFF00C4FF0045FF0074FF00ABFF00BAFF00BAFF00FBFF00BBFF00

The LED on the Teensy is also going crazy all the time, doesn't seem to matter if I am doing anything or not.  

I remembered we were talking about how we might have to swap the lines going to D2 & D3 (now Pin 9 = D3), so I gave that a go.  The LED is much more predictable (only lighting when I put the pen to the screen) and this is the kind of code I am getting.  What do you think?  Does that tell us anything in terms of what goes where?

Quote
                                                                               
001E001E86009EFE0080F80000001E001E86009EFE0080F80000001E00666600060000FE0000001E
00666600060000FE0000001E0086987E1E0080E00000001E0086987E1E0080E00000001E00E09800
660080860000001E00E09800660080860000001E00FE867E7E0000F80000001E00FE867E7E0000F8
0000001E0006980098800000FE0000001E0006980098800000FE0000001E0066600000E00080F800
00001E0066600000E00080F80000001E0098807E86E000000000001E0098807E86E000000000009E
00FEE60006F80000FE0000009E00FEE60006F80000FE0000009E00FEE60006F80000FE0000009E00
06E600E6860000FE0000069E0006E600E6860600FE0000069E0006E600E6866060FE0000069E0006
E600E686E68600FE0000069E00809E7E7EF86606FE0000069E00809E7E7EF8E09800FE0000069E00
809E7E7EF81866FE0000069E00809E7E7EF81866FE0000069E009E9E7E66FE6066F80000069E009E
9E7E66FE1E66F80000069E009E9E7E66FE6066F80000069E00F89E7E1EE60666FE0000069E00F89E
7E1EE69E9800FE0000069E00F89E7E1EE6E018FE0000069E001EE60000FE6618FE0000069E001EE6
0000FEF88000FE0000069E001EE60000FE0600FE0000009E00E6E6009E9E0080800000009E00E6E6
009E9E0080800000009E00E6E6009E9E0080800000001E0098807EE69E0080FE0000001E0098807E
E69E0080FE0000001E00806000E69E0000E00000001E00806000E69E0000E00000001E0086867E98
9E0080980000001E00609800809E0080980000001E0000E60066FE008086000





Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 04:36:34 AM
The last part looks right!! EDIT: no not right, but much better. Probably wrong baud rate. What baud rate was this?

I just checked the code and recalled that I was wrong about the outcome of *. It should look like gibberish too. First try the 0 (enter) command to see if the tablet understood your command. (Move the pen and you should see nothing). Try a 1 and moving the pen should yield something. That will tell you that you have the good baud rate.

So trying the debug template with the good baud rate is the next step.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 04:41:19 AM
In RealTerm what should I select as display as?  For instance, Hex gives me the numbers above, Ascii gives me gibberish characters.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 04:43:48 AM
Hex is better. Try the 1 and 0 commands to see if they have any effect on the pen.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 04:44:15 AM
Okay, no commands seem to work at 38400, but at 19200 the stop (0) and start (1) commands work.  This is what I get when I hit the * (I think 2A is how it interprets the star symbol, this is all in hex mode BTW): 2AC0333220227F0100000222


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 04:48:42 AM
This is the code at 19200 Baud:

Quote
0000A0025E0D4800300000A002630D3800480000A002680D2700480000A0026D0D1500480000A002
720D0300480000A002770C7100080000A0027B0C5F00080000A0027E0C4C00280000A003010C3900
200000A003030C2500700000A003060C1200300000A003080B7F00400000A0030B0B6B00080000A0
030D0B5700280000A0030F0B4300300000A003110B2F00580000A003140B1C00080000A003160B08
00580000A003190A7500180000A0031B0A6200380000A0031D0A5000300000A0031E0A3E00780000
A003200A2D00100000A003200A1D00480000A003200A0D00700000A00320097E00200000A0031F09
6E00580000A0031E096100400000A0031D095300480000A0031C094500780000A0031B0937007000
00A0031A092800600000A0031A091700100000A00318090600680000A00318087400200000A00318
086000180000A00317084C00080000A00316083500280000A00316081C00380000A0031708020008
0000A00318076600180000A00319074A00480000A0031A072B00700000A0031C070A00680000A003
20066700080000A00323064300580000A00327062000680000A0032B057B00480000A0032F055500
680000A00333052D00680000A00337050600380000A0033A046100000000A0033C043B00080000A0
033C041500400000A0033C036E00000000A0033A034700280000A00337032200200000A003320300
00600000A0032D025F00400000A00327023F00680000A00320022000500000A00318020200680000
A0030F016200580000A00305014200380000A00276011F00100000A00261007A00100000A0026100
7A00100000800261007A00100000   


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 04:50:55 AM
You are in business.

Now go for the debug template. It will decode that * response to tell us the max x and max y value to use.

What OS are you using on your computer?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 04:52:51 AM
Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 04:59:19 AM
I think I missed a step, where do I add the * number? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 05:04:11 AM
Well, even with that step missed, here is what the HID listener is telling me (plugged in and then touching the pen to the tablet for a moment)

Code:
Waiting for device:......
Listening:
WaxBee 0.14 -- bzz! bzz!
Serial/ADB tablet to USB converter.
 slaveXMax:21240 slaveYMax:15980 usbXMax:16704 usbYMax:12064
isdv4_serial::init()

 C0 33 22
 A0 06 2A 11 1B 00 58 00
Pressure Max=170, X Max=26248, Y Max=16410, No Tilt, Version=11264
 00
 A0 11 24 00 58 00 00
 A0 06 1F 11 2E 00 28 00 00
 A0 06 18 11 38 00 40 00 00
 A0 06 12 11 42 00 00 00 00
 A0 06 0B 11 4C 00 38 00 00
 A0 06 04 11 58 00 78 00 00
 A0 05 7E 11 65 00 50 00 00
 A0 05 79 11 73 00 00 00 00
 A0 05 74 12 01 00 48 00 00
 A0 05 71 12 10 00 50 00 00
 A0 05 70 12 1F 00 38 00 00
 A0 05 70 12 2F 00 58 00 00
 A0 05 72 12 3F 00 28 00 00
 A0 05 75 12 4D 00 58 00 00
 A0 05 7A 12 5B 00 18 00 00
 A0 05 7F 12 69 00 40 00 00
 A0 06 06 12 76 00 00 00 00
 A0 06 0C 13 02 00 48 00 00
 A0 06 13 13 0E 00 38 00 00
 A0 06 19 13 1A 00 30 00 00
 A0 06 1E 13 26 00 50 00 00
 A0 06 23 13 32 00 10 00 00
 A0 06 26 13 3E 00 00 00 00
 A0 06 28 13 49 00 48 00 00
 A0 06 29 13 53 00 48 00 00
 A0 06 2A 13 5D 00 48 00 00
 A0 06 2A 13 66 00 00 00 00
 A0 06 29 13 6D 00 38 00 00
 A0 06 27 13 74 00 60 00 00
 A0 06 26 13 7A 00 00 00 00
 A0 06 23 13 7E 00 78 00 00
 A0 06 21 14 02 00 50 00 00
 A0 06 1E 14 05 00 68 00 00
 A0 06 1B 14 05 00 78 00 00
 A0 06 19 14 04 00 08 00 00
 A0 06 16 13 7E 00 78 00 00
 A0 06 16 13 75 00 30 00 00
 A0 06 16 13 65 00 70 00 00
 A0 06 1A 13 50 00 70 00 00
 A0 06 20 13 33 00 50 00 00
 A0 06 2B 13 10 00 30 00 00
 A0 06 38 12 65 00 00 00 00
 A0 06 38 12 65 00 00 00 00
 80 06 38 12 65 00 00 00 00


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 05:23:33 AM
Ok that line with the pressure max x and max y is what we need to enter in the real template (intuos2 emulation - another ISDV4 template). You have to change the "slave" max x/y/pressure value. (I am surprised by the number 170 this is unusual).

Can you measure the physical active area or lcd screen size width and height?



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 05:26:59 AM
I don't think it is right.  The HP 2710p has 256 levels of pressure. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 05:31:45 AM
Full face size:
10-7/8" x 7"

Active area size:
10-1/4" x 6-1/2"

LCD resolution:
1280 x 800

Btw, I imputed those figures and now I have basic function.  No sensitivity, but it does jump around and move, not like a mouse. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 06:24:23 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/gFxd45Z.png)

I installed the Intuos 2 drivers so I could get sensitive.  It was very spotty.  Full pressure would result in thinner lines than medium pressure, light pressure would cut out, just all around not normal.  I reloaded the Waxbee Config program and changed the sensitivity from 170 to 256 and now it works as it should. 

I guess it is time to order that LVDS controller kit. 

So once I get the LCD set up, how do I go about calibrating the digitizer to the LCD?  I tried running the Tablet PC configuration included in windows, even though I can't calibrate it to the tablet's LCD I figured it would allow me to configure it to my desktop monitor, but no go.  Is there a way to use Waxbee to make the digitizer work with Wacom's Tablet PC – Enhanced Tablet Driver?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 21, 2013, 09:47:13 AM
From the pictures of the underside of the digitizer board you can clearly see the vcc and ground traces where they've popped through the boards with vias, so definately pin 14 ground and pin 13 Vcc. And from your recent success i think that you may have made a mistake with your assessment of the wire assignment may have been shifted by 1, ie wire13 was actually wire14, this would give a short though ground causing wire13 (as you originally have it) to get very hot. I agree with the assessment of the rest of the pins on your pinout on the socket but then you already know you have that right as you almost have it working.

This is great by the way, and moving on swiftly!


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 21, 2013, 09:50:46 AM
Whoa! Scratch that, there was a whole other page i missed, SUCCESS!!! Well done, good work!


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 21, 2013, 10:21:10 AM
Quote
Is there a way to use Waxbee to make the digitizer work with Wacom's Tablet PC – Enhanced Tablet Driver?

I think this should just work as waxbee is emulating an intuos2, as far as the computer is concerned this is what is connected, calibration is just done by altering the algorithm in the software. Do you have the latest driver package from Wacom that supports the intuos2? I have an intuos2 and I'm running version 6.1.7-3 of the driver all working correctly, maybe this one will work for you?

You can find this driver here:
www.wacom.asia/tablet-drivers-on-facebook?tid_1=35&tid=All&=Apply


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 21, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
No, Waxbee does not support emulating a tabletpc penenabled USB digitizer and enable the "visual" calibration utilities. Would be a great fit for ISDV4 and a lot of builds that does not need intuos2 advanced features. This would require some work to add this a new emulation target. Another option is to emulate a Cintiq.

For now you have a shiny new Intuos2.
To precisely calibrate your Intuos2 you need to enter numbers in the driver (trial and error).

Pressure: enter 255 instead of 256. It has 256 levels: from 0 to 255. It is "capped" internally. It works but it is not as accurate.

When you plan your case make sure you have some access to the teensy button or at least another external button wired to the RST + GND pins. This will be useful for future Waxbee upgrades without opening your case.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 21, 2013, 05:07:01 PM
Ok so I'm confused then, I thought that the waxbee code on a teensy was designed to output the HID info to the computer using the original serial com and converting this for use with usb, so does this not then present itself to the computer as a Wacom device? ThrowingChicken says that the Intuos2 driver was then installed but didn't initially work correctly as the pressure settings were wrong in the waxbee config, these settings were then amended and the pressure sensitivity is now working, which suggests to me that the TabletPC penenabled digitizer is acting as an Intuos or Cintiq device otherwise the driver (which probably supports I2 to I4 and Cintiqs WX/SX/UX/HD) would not work.

Also, doesn't the visual calibration just take the HID information and set limits based on relative pen position? There is no interaction with the tablet in order to set which regions are active on the digitizer, this is all done in software I'm sure. Perhaps you are saying that there is some code required to initialize the software to allow calibration, and perhaps based on device ID? So if this doesn't exist already couldn't you just present the TabletPC digitizer as an Intuos or Cintiq using a device specific ID?

Pardon me if I'm being stupid, I have never tried to convert a serial device to usb and nor do I plan to, but I thought I understood the process fully, perhaps I do not. I would be interested to know how the driver picks up the waxbee though.   


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 06:32:16 PM
From the pictures of the underside of the digitizer board you can clearly see the vcc and ground traces where they've popped through the boards with vias, so definately pin 14 ground and pin 13 Vcc. And from your recent success i think that you may have made a mistake with your assessment of the wire assignment may have been shifted by 1, ie wire13 was actually wire14, this would give a short though ground causing wire13 (as you originally have it) to get very hot. I agree with the assessment of the rest of the pins on your pinout on the socket but then you already know you have that right as you almost have it working.

This is great by the way, and moving on swiftly!
You might be right.  I wanted to check for where the wires were going but unfortunately my prying open of the connector was a little more violent than expected and I ended up pulling all of the wires out before getting a chance to see where exactly they went.  That said, I am still pretty certain I'd have needed to replace those wires.  I have that extra cable where I snipped the line [I presumed was going] to pin 13, when I hook the continuity test to it I get readings on both pin 14 and 13.  I don't know what it is about this cable, or how it was ever able to work with the laptop, but it loves to short out. 

Quote
I think this should just work as waxbee is emulating an intuos2, as far as the computer is concerned this is what is connected, calibration is just done by altering the algorithm in the software. Do you have the latest driver package from Wacom that supports the intuos2? I have an intuos2 and I'm running version 6.1.7-3 of the driver all working correctly, maybe this one will work for you?
The one I am using is 6.2.0w5.  It gives me pressure sensitivity and all that good stuff; It basically works like an Intuos at this point.  My concern is, once I have the LCD working, can I calibrate it so it all matches up?

No, Waxbee does not support emulating a tabletpc penenabled USB digitizer and enable the "visual" calibration utilities. Would be a great fit for ISDV4 and a lot of builds that does not need intuos2 advanced features. This would require some work to add this a new emulation target. Another option is to emulate a Cintiq.

For now you have a shiny new Intuos2.
To precisely calibrate your Intuos2 you need to enter numbers in the driver (trial and error).
Aye, so it probably isn't as simple as changing a few numbers in the Waxbee Configuration Utility, is what you are saying.  As someone who knows nothing about coding, but has access to a working tablet PC using the ISD driver; Is there anything I can do to help get that developed? 

As for the driver mod, would this be the hex file that Waxbee made or would it be the driver I installed from Wacom? 

Quote
Pressure: enter 255 instead of 256. It has 256 levels: from 0 to 255. It is "capped" internally. It works but it is not as accurate.
If it has 256 why do I want to cap it at 255?  It's only a levels difference so I doubt I'd notice, I am just curious. 

Ok so I'm confused then, I thought that the waxbee code on a teensy was designed to output the HID info to the computer using the original serial com and converting this for use with usb, so does this not then present itself to the computer as a Wacom device? ThrowingChicken says that the Intuos2 driver was then installed but didn't initially work correctly as the pressure settings were wrong in the waxbee config, these settings were then amended and the pressure sensitivity is now working, which suggests to me that the TabletPC penenabled digitizer is acting as an Intuos or Cintiq device otherwise the driver (which probably supports I2 to I4 and Cintiqs WX/SX/UX/HD) would not work.

Also, doesn't the visual calibration just take the HID information and set limits based on relative pen position? There is no interaction with the tablet in order to set which regions are active on the digitizer, this is all done in software I'm sure. Perhaps you are saying that there is some code required to initialize the software to allow calibration, and perhaps based on device ID? So if this doesn't exist already couldn't you just present the TabletPC digitizer as an Intuos or Cintiq using a device specific ID?
I know this isn't directed at me, but I'd have thought I could use the on screen tablet configuration to match the digitizer [seen as an Intuos 2] to the monitor, but when I click on the calibration cross hairs nothing happens.  If only they worked together, it would make things much simpler, lol. 

On a side note, do you any of you think it would be possible to build a VGA, USB, and 12VDC 4A power supply to 25-pin d-sub cable adapter?  The goal being to have a box desktop side where I'd plug in my power, USB, and VGA from the computer, then plug a single cable into the other side of that box, then have that cable plug into my tablet where inside would be another adapter converting the pins back to VGA/USB/Power, that way I don't have a bunch of wires coming out of the tablet.  I am sure the wiring is no issue, but will this cause interference inside the cable, or data loss, and can a d-sub handle the power supply? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 21, 2013, 07:05:25 PM
Quote
If it has 256 why do I want to cap it at 255?  It's only a levels difference so I doubt I'd notice, I am just curious.

This is because 256 degrees of pressure is made up from 0 through 255 = 256.

Quote
I know this isn't directed at me, but I'd have thought I could use the on screen tablet configuration to match the digitizer [seen as an Intuos 2] to the monitor, but when I click on the calibration cross hairs nothing happens.

Is there not an option called something like "Click to define screen area"? When you use this it asks you to click on the top right corner of the screen and then the bottom right. See below:
[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 21, 2013, 08:12:02 PM
Quote
If it has 256 why do I want to cap it at 255?  It's only a levels difference so I doubt I'd notice, I am just curious.

This is because 256 degrees of pressure is made up from 0 through 255 = 256.
Ah yes, that makes sense.  Already updated, I don't know if it is real or perceived but I think it feels better. 



Quote
Is there not an option called something like "Click to define screen area"? When you use this it asks you to click on the top right corner of the screen and then the bottom right. See below:
[attachment=1]

Yes, I do get that.  I just worry that it won't map up exactly.  Here is an example of how this works with the ISD Tablet PC driver

(http://www.shamasis.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/image.png)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 21, 2013, 09:18:02 PM
Ahh I see I think that the ISD Tablet PC Driver is doing all the work for you. There are two parts within the Wacom driver which you would set in order to match up the pen to the screen exactly, the first is 'Pen Mapping', the second is 'Tablet Mapping'. I have described 'Pen Mapping' below, but 'Tablet Mapping' is similar with the exception that the corner markers are not present. With both set up everything will match beautifully.

Ok, you can scale the active area of the tablet to any size part of the screen you wish just by clicking where on the screen you want the tablet to work, for example if I wanted my tablet to work only inside this text box I would click on "Click to define screen area" and then be presented with a little symbol, see below:

Initial symbol:
[attachment=1]

Message displayed in dialog box:
[attachment=2]

Then symbol:
[attachment=3]

And message:
[attachment=4]

If I click in the top left corner of the box and then the bottom right you can see in the next image that my active area has been adjusted to only work in the bounding box which is highlighted with a red rectangle around the mini picture of this very text box.
[attachment=5]

So, in this example the whole of my Intuos 2 active area has been remapped to just the text box, ie I can move the pen anywhere on the tablet but it will only move the cursor around inside the text box selected.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 22, 2013, 12:02:05 AM
Yeah I guess that driver has spoiled me. 

I've gone ahead and ordered the LVSD controller kit, that will take a couple of weeks to get here.  I've also ordered some other components to experiment with.  Once I get a proof of concept for some features I want then I'll start planning out the case. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 22, 2013, 12:32:40 AM
Driver: Just alter the numbers to make a perfect match.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 22, 2013, 05:40:10 AM
Is your LVDS controller has the ability to be reprogrammed to another  LCD panel?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 22, 2013, 06:10:09 AM
They are programing it for my panel model. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 22, 2013, 06:57:19 AM
When you have a chance, do you think you could help out with the following (outdated) list of LVDS vendors? You mentionned a couple that I never heard of.

http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:lvdsvendors


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 22, 2013, 08:48:59 AM
Is the waxbee config stored on the teensy? If so adjusting the numbrs here as Bernard suggested might be better than using the wacom software as the tablet will always be set to match the screen even after an OS reinstall, but by using the wacom software you would need to reconfigure. Not really a massive problem though as it takes about 30seconds to setup using the wacom software.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 22, 2013, 09:07:12 AM
Also, referring back to a bit of you post earlier regarding combining power, usb, and vga. This is not likely a good idea i should think for a few reasons:

1. Interference between power, usb and vga
2. 4Amps is probably asking a bit much of the thin wires in a vga cable
3. Chance that you might one day accidently plug the modded cable into a standard monitor with disastrous consequences

I suppose you may be able to find some cable somewhere that has thicker twisted pairs of wires so that you can build a bespoke cable but I don't know of anything that would resolve all of the above issues.

multiple cables isn't that bad anyway.   ;)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 22, 2013, 02:54:50 PM
Is your board DVI or VGA?

Just use a clean way to attach the wires together, it will at least look cleaner than seeing 3 wires.
Plan your case to hide the connectors.

I know a trick to keep 2 thin wires "close" just by twisting them in a certain way: temporarily attach one end of the wires together. Then hold the loose ends in the air, (one per hand) in a V fashion. Here it goes: twist each cable with your fingers at the same time by rotating them _in the same direction_- like clockwise. The wires will start to tangle (twist on each other) and the V will become a Y. With the distance/tension control the density (make it nice looking). Continue to twist until done.  You can then detach the ends - the wires will hold like one, twisted pair cable.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 22, 2013, 03:02:20 PM
I did not meant to change the waxbee config but the numbers (counts / pixels) in the wacom driver.

Of course, the waxbee "config" is stored in the Teensy. It is "injected" in the code just before re-programming the Teensy or generating a .hex file.

Using the Waxbee config is completely doable and yes, it would be independent of the host machine. It is just more annoying to do. I was planning to incorporate a tool to help in that regard but never got to it. Nobody really had to extensively play with this.  

EDIT: The MIN/MAX values of the "slave" and "USB" sides are the numbers to play with in order to achieve a similar effect. Make sure you do not turn on any special mapping (like keeping a square ratio) in the Wacom driver as it will interfere and make the task difficult.  Note: The larger Intuos2 tablets have a "menu bar" at the top which we already need to "skip" (that is why the MIN is not set to 0 ).

I even have a special feature (anchors) to "extend" the reach of the digitizer active area. Everywhere but the edges, the pen is perfectly aligned to the cursor. Near the edges it starts to drift away (does not align). The cursor reaches the side faster than the pen. This is only for when your active area is smaller than the LCD. Not the best situation, but a cool workaround someone on the forum thought about. For side buttons or scroll bars, it works okay.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 22, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
When you have a chance, do you think you could help out with the following (outdated) list of LVDS vendors? You mentionned a couple that I never heard of.

http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk/doku.php?id=bongofish:lvdsvendors


Sure thing, these are the vendors I spoke with:

e-qstore (http://myworld.ebay.com/e-qstore?ssPageName=ADME:X:CEM:US:1181):  Contact was Sabrina.  She said they had the right board, but did not have the correct cable for my unit. 
chinatobby2011 (http://myworld.ebay.com/chinatobby2011?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1181):  Contact was Kevin.  No support for my unit. 
njytouch (http://myworld.ebay.com/njytouch?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1181):  Already listed.  Contact was Maria.  No support for my unit.
notebookaid (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11051.m66.l1181/7?euid=862eb455c005468f82f78f16819f3f74&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmyworld.ebay.com%2Fnotebookaid%3FssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1181):  Contact was Wendy.  They could support my unit, but the kit was $70.  On the plus side it did come with a power adapter.   
wfyb (http://myworld.ebay.com/wfyb?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1181):  Contact name not mentioned.  No support for my unit.  They claim they are in the US so if they have your board maybe shipping is faster/cheaper. 
csmqshop (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11051.m66.l1181/7?euid=fad3741b03c14cf5946ff6d71fa9b233&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmyworld.ebay.com%2Fcsmqshop%3FssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1181):  Contact was Kevin.  No support for my unit. 
fibica_store (http://myworld.ebay.com/fibica_store?_trksid=p2047675.l2559):  Contact was Henry.  Support for unit.  Controller kit was $38 after shipping.  It also looked like their board had more input options than notebookaid so I went with these guys. 

I have a feeling that a lot of these are the same company with just different names, but I have no proof of that.  I've also found that you can get a blank board for around $11.  The trouble is programing it and making sure you have the right cable. 

Also, referring back to a bit of you post earlier regarding combining power, usb, and vga. This is not likely a good idea i should think for a few reasons:

1. Interference between power, usb and vga
2. 4Amps is probably asking a bit much of the thin wires in a vga cable
3. Chance that you might one day accidently plug the modded cable into a standard monitor with disastrous consequences

I suppose you may be able to find some cable somewhere that has thicker twisted pairs of wires so that you can build a bespoke cable but I don't know of anything that would resolve all of the above issues.

multiple cables isn't that bad anyway.   ;)

Is D-Sub just a variety of VGA (or vice versa)?  I've asked around and though most of the people I've spoken to think it would work, there are a few hold outs, you fellas included.  Though a number of my hold outs do think it would work if I were to do the power separately, so two cables instead of three.  Though I have been trying to find out what sort of power these cables can support and I've seen numbers at 5A and higher.  I suppose I could do a small test to see if it works.  If it didn't then no big deal I guess. 

Is your board DVI or VGA?
VGA, DVI, and HDMI.  I am not completely sure which one I will use, as I already have two monitors set up on my desktop.  I might end up using HDMI. 

Quote
Just use a clean way to attach the wires together, it will at least look cleaner than seeing 3 wires.
Plan your case to hide the connectors.

I know a trick to keep 2 thin wires "close" just by twisting them in a certain way: temporarily attach one end of the wires together. Then hold the loose ends in the air, (one per hand) in a V fashion. Here it goes: twist each cable with your fingers at the same time by rotating them _in the same direction_- like clockwise. The wires will start to tangle (twist on each other) and the V will become a Y. With the distance/tension control the density (make it nice looking). Continue to twist until done.  You can then detach the ends - the wires will hold like one, twisted pair cable.
Sounds interesting.  Do you have any photo reference of what this looks like?  Another idea was to just shrink tube the three wires together. 



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 22, 2013, 08:03:21 PM
Also, the only reason I'd like to try to compact it to one cable is because I want it to be more than just a desktop device, I want it to be something I can move around with, sit on the couch, etc, and I think all that movement is going to cause too many issues with so many cables. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 22, 2013, 09:56:12 PM
it is not the number of cables, it is how each cable can sustain "movement" (frequent sharp bending). VGA cables are the worst for dealing with frequent movement.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 22, 2013, 10:13:01 PM
Is there a cable besides d-sub that might fair better for my idea? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 23, 2013, 01:10:50 AM
Hum. We would need to check how many connections is required. It is really VGA right?  Not DVI? (DVI digital signals can use nice flexible hdmi cables).

You have to count the number of wires and twisted pair wires. VGA signals can pickup noise easily. They always put a metallic foil as part of the shielding. They also use ferrite rings on one or both ends. The high number of wires plus the extra shielding makes VGA cables hardly flexible. Look for quality flexible VGA cables maybe.

The dsub connector is quite bulky compared to slim HDMI connectors.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 23, 2013, 03:17:33 AM
The LVDS supports HDMI, DVI, and VGA.  I'll need to check what I have free on my video card.  I know I at least have an HDMI port available. 

Another option might be to get a USB to HDMI kit and build that into the tablet case.  Then the only thing going to the case would be USB cords and the power. 

Here is a diagram showing what my intention was with the Dsub.  VGA is 15 pin, USB is 4, and then two for the DC power, so I only need 21 pins (assuming I don't need a second USB connection), the D-Sub seemed like the beefiest cable with the closest amount of pins. 

(http://i.imgur.com/MKPpaN0.jpg)

I don't know if you have seen the cable for the new Cintiq Companion Hybrid (http://cintiqcompanion.wacom.com/CintiqCompanionHybrid/en/), but that's what I am going for. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 23, 2013, 04:52:03 AM
I would drop VGA and stick to digital. DVI-D I think shares the same signals as HDMI-without-sound. There are cheap converter "cables" out there. This would lower your pin count.

USB: you can incorporate a usb hub and thus combine all  USB connections into one USB cable.

I have a USB to DVI and it can lag for fullscreen updates like video or 3D modeling. But it is cool for adding an extra monitor without a video card.

Adding a project box might make the whole thing much more bulky than using the bare 3 connectors.

Not sure about using a dsub 25. This somewhat bulky old connector is, for sure, not the one Wacom is using.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 23, 2013, 07:03:37 AM
The project box would be desktop side so it doesn't really matter.  I might mount it under my desk and have a connector for the D-Sub (or whatever kind of cable) mounted on the front so I can just plug the tablet in when I want to use it .

And yeah, I'm sure the Wacom cable is proprietary and rather small.  But I still think the large D-Sub connector and cable would be better than a bunch of loose or taped together wires.  But that said if I can find a smaller cable that can do the job then I'm all for that.  The concern really is just interference within the cable between the various signals.  I did find this interesting cable (http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c_id=102&cp_id=10206&cs_id=1020603&p_id=356&seq=1&format=1#largeimage).  One end is the 25 pin d-sub and the other is for some Cisco modem.  Not sure how easy it would be to get one of the female connectors for that end, but if the cable worked then maybe I could track down the modem and remove the connector from it. 

Having trouble figuring out how many pins the DVI-D actually uses.  I know the cable has 18-19 pins but no consensus about how many are being used.  


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 23, 2013, 10:08:48 AM
Here's a couple of ideas, the first is to use cat5 cable used for ethernet wiring. The wire is comparably less rigid that standard vga cable and you can transmit well over 10metres, the crux is that there is only enough twisted pairs for the vga so you also need to build one for the usb too. In order to give the appearance of a single cable you could then use braided sleeving to enclose both cables and should stay pretty flexible. The added bonus here is that you could have 2 separate usb connection through one wire, no need for a hub. The same might be possible with dvi, you would need to research that, and bare in mind that long cables means more noise.

The second idea, and one im considering, is to use DVI & USB to M1-DA EVC P&D cable (http://www.projectorshop24.co.uk/adapter-and-splitter/infocus-m1da-to-dvi-d--usb-type-a-adapter-cable/) -Im sure these can be found shorter and cheaper elsewhere.
The only thing is we need to find a female m1-da socket that we could use in the back of the DIY Cintiq, then all that's needed is a bit of soldering.

You can also search for this cable by 'dvi usb projector cable', since that is what it's for.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 23, 2013, 04:46:28 PM
You can see in the picture that this M1-DA cable is actually shaped like two cables stuck toghether. This sounds good for low interference -- each "sub cable" probably have distinct shielding. DVI cable has a lot of (potentially unused) signals. If not using all the signals, then you could pass on the power using a few wires to split the Amp load. You often see that with LCD Panels: they use 3 or 4 "signal" wire to pass the power.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 23, 2013, 07:20:59 PM
The Cat5 is interesting because it would be fairly easy to get 2-3 lengths of it going down a roll of shrink tube.  It also seems to confirm that for VGA you really only need 8 wires.  Here is a tutorial, though you can already get a VGA to Cat5 adapter for next to nothing - http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-VGA-cord-of-CAT5-cable/

The other cable is interesting too.  It differs from others I have seen.  In most cases I've seen two wires stuck together with USB and video on both ends.  That's better than a bunch of hanging wires, but still.  If only there was one with video, USB, and something else that could be used for power... Anyway, here is a cheaper version - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?seq=1&format=2&p_id=3041&CAWELAID=1329448189&catargetid=320013720000010718&cadevice=c&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CInp7oeXlLkCFVNo7Aode3EAxg


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 24, 2013, 05:31:18 AM
So I pulled out my desktop to check what ports are avaliable on my video card.  I have two DVI ports which are both being used, one HDMI and one DisplayPort.  Hopefully that doesn't complicate anything.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 24, 2013, 06:30:15 AM
I suppose if push came to shove I could get a basic PCI-Express video card to do VGA or DVI for the tablet. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 24, 2013, 10:20:24 AM
Quick note on vga vs dvi based on my experience whilst testing with the Serenitiq, in my opinion vga is electrically noisier than dvi. I believe this is because vga uses an analog signal which has to be converted on the lvds circuitry to lvds (digital signal) and it is this process which produces some rfi. Also dvi provides a much better picture since there are no loses in quality due to analog to digital conversion. Just my opinion mind, but why wouldn't you want the best picture from a device you putting you heart and sole into?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 24, 2013, 05:16:06 PM
Definitely a fair point, but as far as I can tell using DVI-D would completely rule out using the d-sub.  The d-sub idea might not work anyway but if DVI-D uses 19 pins then I would have no room for USB and power.  At most analog uses 15 and it may use as little as 8.  If the D-Sub idea doesn't work then I would agree that DVI or my other digital signals would probably be my go to. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 24, 2013, 11:25:53 PM
You say you have DVI-D, so, what about using a DVI-I cable (which includes lines for analog RGB signal), and using the redundant RGB and TTL line for USB?

Things you would need to do:
1. Modify one branch of a dvi splitter cable at the computer end to allow you to combine the USB with DVI-I. So, USB and DVI-D input computer side, DVI-I (with integrated USB) output Tablet side.
2. As in 1. Modify one branch of a DVI splitter at the Tablet end to tap off the USB lines.
3. Plug in the DVI-I cable at both ends.
4. Done.

Then you could just use a regular DVI-I cable, nice.

Advantage of this method is that the dvi-i cable can be used elsewhere at another time, since the cable was never modified.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 25, 2013, 12:16:42 AM
The cool thing about dvi-d and usb is that they are digital and will not interfere from one another.  I would worry more about injecting  noise into the power.

For USB you need a twisted pair for data and potentially another one for power/ground.

I am not sure but does analog dvi signals run on twisted pair, coax or nothing special?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 25, 2013, 01:40:27 AM
Do we know what pins are required for DVI-D?  Does it use the full 19 or are some redundant.  I suppose even if it uses the full 19, there should be ten to spare.  That might just work!  But can the wires in a DVI cable handle the voltage from the power?  I am fairly confident that the  D-Sub could take the current, I've seen it rated between 5 A and 7.5 A, 500-1000 VAC, but what about DVI?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 25, 2013, 07:52:00 AM
Those ratings of 5A to 7.5A for the d-sub would just be for the connector not the wires attached, it seems likely that the dvi connector would be similar but that should be easy enough to find out.

I'm not suggesting that you try and use the cable for power too, this is because 12v 4Amps is quite alot of power (48watts) and even sharing this over a few of the cables seems a bit much. Not to mention that you are likely to run into problems with either you power source being noisy or you digital video signal losing data.

integrating usb into dvi-i should be pretty straight forward though as dvi cables do use twisted pairs, but you would need to work out which pairs tied up with the redundant analog pins and use those pairs for usb. In fact if you screen resolution is less than limits for single link (see below), then you will have spare wires from the second link to play with too. Potentially that's 3usb connections plus one digital link!

single link maximum resolution limit:
◾HDTV (1,920 × 1,080) 60Hz
◾UXGA (1,600 × 1,200) 60Hz
◾WUXGA (1,920 × 1,200) 60Hz
◾SXGA (1,280 × 1,024) 85Hz
◾WXGA+ (1440 × 900) 60Hz


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 25, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
Well I've stumbled across another connector that I've never heard of but that might be useable for the full monty of connections, it's called D Sub 27W2 - see datasheet: http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0ddc/0900766b80ddc3e3.pdf. There are many flavors of this type of connector as you can see in the datasheet, although I have no idea how easy they are to get hold of.

Still doesn't solve the problem of which cable to use, but because they use standard d-sub dimensions you can put them inside a regular d-sub case. Perhaps you could have multiple cables connected at each end via one connector, perhaps even use braided sleeve? Just a thought.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scratch that, didn't realise they were coax plugs, thought they were large power pins. Doh. Might still be useful though.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scratch the Scratch that, I was right the first time, you can get these connectors with either mini coax or high power connectors so still worth considering. Here's a pic of a small d-sub with power (male&female in one): http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/123/078/419/419078123_702.JPG


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 25, 2013, 10:19:38 PM
Interesting find!  So basically I could shrink tube USB, DVI, and DC together and then re-pin one end for this plug. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 25, 2013, 10:58:07 PM
Well in theory at least. I haven't spent much time looking into it as i stumbled across this while i was looking for something else. From what i understand, you have to pick how many native pins you want, and then decide what type of additional connectors you want (but you have to buy them separately - about £2 each). From the datasheet it would seem the lowest rated straight power connector (big pins) is 10A which is plenty big enough. It would seem that a prefix of 'PT', 'PR', or 'PS' denotes that high power pins are required, also as an example, 17w2 denotes 17 native digital pins and 2 large cavities for the high power pins, similarly, a 36w4 would have 36 native pins and 4 large cavities.

This would be quite a neat solution but may end up costing a bit, and there's also quite a bit of soldering involved. Careful planning needed, but, could end up looking very smart and could work well. These seem to be available at RS/Farnell/Mouser.

Here's the Mouser link: http://uk.mouser.com/Connectors/D-Sub-Connectors/D-Sub-Mixed-Contact-Connectors/_/N-9gya9/


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 25, 2013, 11:29:10 PM
Yeah I'm having trouble finding them.  The ones I am finding are expensive (relatively to a plain DB25 connector) and have a wait time of 3 months. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 26, 2013, 01:59:06 AM
Ah screw it.  I'm just going to get the M1 connector and do the power plug in such a way that it can't be pulled out with the M1 in place. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 26, 2013, 04:28:43 AM
Again, why not getting standard connectors and wiring them through 1 exotic cable?  (instead of having a special cable AND a special connector AND a project box)?   I am probably missing something important here.

EDIT: make sure you pick a very flexible cable -- these are much nicer to handle than a standard DVI cable.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 26, 2013, 04:52:52 AM
I'm not following your question, can you clarify? 

The appeal of the D-Sub connector is that the cable is readily available (if it breaks, I can go down to Altex or Office Depot and pick one up), there is one wire going to the tablet so I don't have to deal with three wires, and it will look nice tablet side.  The project box can be hidden away.  But like I said, I might just use the MI with USB cable you posted earlier.  Maybe I will use a right angled DC plug that fights in right next to the M1 cable, angled so that it can not be pulled out when the M1 is in place.   


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 26, 2013, 09:50:13 AM
@Bernard, combining usb and dvi/vga through one cable should be pretty easy, but if you want power through the cable too it is not possible to use a standard cable or connector as they are not rated for high enough power, unless maybe you used multiple cores for positive and negative. The gauge of wire required for 48watts (12V @4A) over 2 metres is 19AWG (20SWG aka 0.81mm diameter). Of corse, if this was only a one metre length you could get away with a slightly thinner wire such as 22AWG (23SWG or 0.64mm diameter). There's a calculator for that here: http://www.solar-wind.co.uk/cable-sizing-DC-cables.html

Actually, thinking about combining cores for the poles of the DC power, that could work if you used the analog part of a dvi-i cable for power, you could use 2 cores for positive and 2 cores for negative, but the cable itself must have wires of gauge 26AWG/27SWG/0.4mm at the very minimum, preferably 24AWG/25SWG/0.51mm.


--------------------------------------------------
CORRECTION
--------------------------------------------------
19AWG has a diameter of 0.91mm not 0.81mm. But you could still probably get away with 2wires of 22AWG in place of 19AWG.

However, the last part about being able to use 2wires of 26AWG is wrong, 26AWG has a CSA of 0.126mm^2, 19AWG has a CSA of 0.65mm^2, which means that you would need 5wires per pole (assuming that you weren't actually using the full 4Amps). This also translates to 3x 24AWG wires.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 26, 2013, 09:56:49 AM
Oh, and exotic cables/connectors are fun and, well, exotic!


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 26, 2013, 07:55:13 PM
Yeah I can get the DVI cable at 24 gauge, but I don't know if this will be enough. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 26, 2013, 09:22:43 PM
Well in theory it should be enough, as two 24AWG wires joined together give double the current carrying capacity of a single 24AWG wire, so, for example if a single pair of 24AWG wire can happily manage 12volts 1.5Amps over 2 metres (which it can by the way), then 2 pairs can handle 3Amps. This means that if you went this route you would have to use a cable no longer than 1.5metres to keep the wire happy to run at a maximum of 4Amps.

Fact is though that your screen will never use a full 4Amps anyway as power supplies always provide headroom. My experience with several 17" panels has been a rush current of about 2 to 2.3Amps and a constant current thereafter of just under 2Amps, well under the 4Amps rate of their power supplies. Your panel is also one which was intended for use on a laptop which makes me think that power consumption may even be well below 1.5Amps to maintain battery life. I suppose if you were still concerned then you could use 3 pairs of 24AWG wire for the power giving you the headroom of 6Amps, which means that each connector pin and wire will probably only have to manage about 500mA.

Perhaps a better way to look at this is like this:
A single 24AWG wire has a cross-sectional area of about 0.5mm^2 and a diameter of about 0.8mm.

3x 24AWG wires have a cross-sectional area of about 1.5mm^2, Which means that 3x 24AWG wires joined together have the same current carrying capacity as a single piece of 19AWG wire that is 1.4mm in diameter, a good chunky bit of wire.

 
--------------------------------------------------
CORRECTION
--------------------------------------------------
A single wire of 24AWG has a cross sectional area of about 0.2mm^2 not 0.5mm^2 as I have above. This means that the calculation which followed was also wrong, 19AWG wire in fact has a CSA of about 0.65mm^2 which means that you would need 4x 24AWG wires to happily handle 12V 4A over 2m, not 3 as I have above.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 26, 2013, 09:44:44 PM
I'd probably want at least a ten foot long cord, 15 at the most; assuming I doubled (or tripped) up on the 24AWG cable for the voltage, should that be fine? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 26, 2013, 10:22:02 PM
Oh, well, that makes quite a big difference, 10feet is about 3metres and that's a long power run. That calculator shows that 12V 4A over 3m requires a wire which has a cross sectional area of 4mm^2, which is 2.26mm in diameter, so you would definitely need at least 3 wires per pole (to give an effective cross sectional area of 4.52mm^2), so a total of 6 wires.

15feet is about 4.6m which means that 12V 4A over this distance requires a wire of 10mm^2 cross sectional area! So you need five 24AWG wires per pole to happily handle this current, that's 10 of the much needed wires in a DVI-I cable!

There are other factors to consider when deciding upon long lengths of wire, a major one is signal losses, another major one is interference between wires (crosstalk), and given that you plan to also have power in there, the power supply may well end up being far from the desired smooth DC that your equipment desires, which may cause problems with timings in the digital electronics, which in turn may lead to your equipment not running as desired.

My recommendation here would be to keep it under 2metres tops!


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 27, 2013, 02:50:52 AM
Another question: Is it *really* 4 amps?  This is the power supply max rating. What type of backlight do you have, and, in particular, how many CCFL lamps are present (if this is not a LED board)?  Lots of LCD panels have only 1 lamp. It varies from 1 to 6 lamps!!   So before ordering anything, I would first *measure* how much power is realistically required.

5 pins of 24 AWG -- can this be made flexible?



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 27, 2013, 04:16:29 AM
I won't know till it gets here.  I was hoping to be able to experiment with the adapter/cables with another monitor while I wait the 3-4 weeks it takes.

According to this page it is an LED backlit monitor - http://www.screentekinc.com/HP_Compaq_2710P_Series--12.1-inch--1280x800-wxga-laptop-lcd-screen.shtml

So I don't know what the current will be.  Considering how thin the wires were on the connector... but keep in mind the power supply powers the controller kit too so I'm sure that adds something to it. 

So the problem I am having now is finding a DVI-I cable that is 24AWG!  Turns out the one I was looking at was for DVI-D which doesn't use all of the pins.  28AWG is common, but will three of those per polarity still be enough? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 27, 2013, 08:09:37 AM
I think your panel might be LTN121W4-L01 by Samsung. Whilst i couldn't find any info on power usage of this model in the brief search i did, i have found a similar panel from a different manufacturer:

HV121WX5-121 by Hydis (never heard of them before) - http://www.panelook.com/HV121WX5-121_HYDIS_12.1_LCM_parameter_18886.html

Although figures might not be exactly the same i would expect similar power consumption from both panels. This shows a maximum power consumption of about 7.8watts, and a typical consumption of 4.2 watts.
Since the power supply is likely to be 12volts, working this back this will be a maximum current of 650mA to drive the tft and backlight, you would need to factor in the lvds power and other electronics, but i cant see this going above an amp all in. Like i said before, it's a panel for a laptop so power consumption is desired to be low to extend battery life.

28AWG wire is quite different from 24AWG, see wiki table for comparison: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

But because I'm nice let's have a look at using 12v 1Amp over 5metres. This requires 22AWG wire which has a CSA of 0.326mm^2, and from the wiki table we can see that 28AWG wire has a diameter of 0.321mm, so then using PI*r^2 we get a CSA of 0.081mm^2, dividing 0.326 by 0.081 we get about 4, that's 4 wires of 28AWG to happily handle 12v 1Amp over 5m (just over 15ft).


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 27, 2013, 08:40:38 AM
That is good news!  And don't let anyone tell you you are not nice  ;)

I do have a Hydis (http://i.imgur.com/Wg3fJ0k.jpg)!  You are not the first to think it was that Samsung, it actually came up in my earlier research before I took the assembly apart.  I wonder if they are the same just re-branded?  In any event, my actual display is the Hydis HV121WX5-110 which appears to be very much in the same family (http://www.panelook.com/modeldetail.php?id=3612).  The specs seem to line up perfectly. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 27, 2013, 08:53:38 AM
Well there you go, bit of a fluke if I'm honest.

Oh, I noticed some errors in my calculations earlier on in the post which I have since corrected (big letters in blue - post #107 & #110), there might be some earlier on when we were talking about using 4Amps, I'll check through more thoroughly when I get a chance - Done. They came about as a combination of the rounding up of the calculator posted earlier and me using the diameter instead of the radius in my calculation. My apologies.

I can confirm however that my most recent post regarding 12V 1Amp over 5metres is correct, but to clarify that's still a total of 8 wires (4 per pole).


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 29, 2013, 10:48:30 PM
The LCD controller kit came in today;  I wasn't expecting it so I find myself without a power adapter for it, which should be here on Saturday. 

I wish instructions for this board were a little more... I can't say clear, "existent" might be a better word.  The LCD plug on both the board and the monitor appears to be ambidextrous.  I can't tell which way it is supposed to face. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 30, 2013, 01:14:23 AM
hum. Photo please.  No indication of "pin1" on both ends?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 30, 2013, 04:34:45 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/YTNzfyL.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/e9gpAnM.jpg)
Left to my own devices I'd presume that little white dot on the connector is supposed to line up with that white arrow-ish shape, but I hate to make assumptions. 

(http://i.imgur.com/4qNwcNi.jpg)
Hopefully that is right.  I could flip it and probably get it in the other way, though this direction went in first.  The red line is going towards the right side of this plug. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 30, 2013, 04:48:55 PM
Yep, id have to agree, white dot equals pin1.

from the blurry shot of the connector it appears that having the connector the wrong way around will not do anything anyway, as half of the connector is empty.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 30, 2013, 06:50:37 PM
yes:  they have a white dot and there is a white triangle.

As an added thing, you try to follow the "power" ---  it is easy to spot on the flex cable connector : it uses many large traces.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 30, 2013, 11:15:31 PM
There are three red wires, with the ribbon connector plugged in as show, two go to the right and one goes somewhere towards the left.  Seems right, I won't know for sure until tomorrow, but if it's wrong I hope it doesn't do any damage. 

In the meantime, I picked up an Intuos 3 off of eBay for $100.  I might be addicted to this tablet modification stuff now. With any luck I'll have it converted into a Cintiq some day too.  Here it is next to the Graphire II I have been using since 2005.
(http://i.imgur.com/F8epBei.png)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: thp777 on August 31, 2013, 12:57:19 AM
ya that is the right direction. I have the same board.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 31, 2013, 05:41:01 PM
So I got it powered up, but I'm just getting a dark screen with vertical lines.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on August 31, 2013, 06:09:13 PM
Hmm, not sure, any pictures?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on August 31, 2013, 07:15:21 PM
Can you bring up the OSD?  (The menu from the controller)

Yeah a picture would be great. So if you get vertical lines Does that mean the backlit is fine?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 31, 2013, 07:28:31 PM
It's too faint to photograph, so here is a mock up of what it looks like, give or take.

(http://i.imgur.com/8i1YyBb.jpg)

No OSD. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 01, 2013, 01:18:27 AM
Actually, the lines only show up when an image is on display.  So if I disconnect the video and exit the OSD, the screen is black (but backlight is on), when I press the menu button, or try to connect to the PC I get the lines.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 01, 2013, 03:08:30 AM
Did you ever saw this lcd working before?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 01, 2013, 03:29:23 AM
Yes it worked fine.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on September 01, 2013, 11:40:10 AM
Can we see a picture of the whole thing wired as you have it currently? I mean the tft, the lvds, and the power module for the backlight.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 01, 2013, 05:38:27 PM
Sure, not a lot to see though.  It' just one cable.

(http://i.imgur.com/l65fVGQ.jpg)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 01, 2013, 06:11:00 PM
Difficult to diagnose I must say. If the LCD works, then the most probable thing is a bad programming.   :P   They do not have your LCD in hand to testify that it works before shipping it to you.  One option is to buy their programmer and do it yourself or send out your precious LCD so they do it.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 01, 2013, 07:05:31 PM
I wouldn't know the first thing about programing it.  I suppose I could mail them the LCD.  I'll wait and see what they say. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 01, 2013, 07:24:38 PM
LOL.  I did meant you to write "code". 

I meant you to buy the electronic device that is used to program your device which would presumably come with a series of files and then try to program/flash different files until one works.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 01, 2013, 07:28:45 PM
Hrm, what are the programing devices called? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 01, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
Well, hum..  a "programmer".  :P    I do not even know if they sell it or what.  I think you have to contact them and tell them about your issue and discuss the options.  The best is of course to send them your panel so they can make sure it works before sending the kit back.  Probably you would only need to send the main board and the cable along with the LCD (no need to send the power supply).



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on September 01, 2013, 09:51:31 PM
Editted.

I can see the backlight is connected to the tcon board attached to the tft, so if the lights come on this is connected correctly. Are all connectors seated properly?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on September 01, 2013, 10:29:25 PM
What you might be able to try is connecting the panel to a computer as a second screen and downloading a freeware EDID application, this will tell you what settings the lvds have programmed. The EDID info contains supported resolutions including optimum resolution, product details, manufacturer details ( that is the manufacturer that the lvds was programmed for ), and product type, from all this you might be able to ascertain if the lvds is correctly programmed for your screen.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 01, 2013, 10:31:32 PM
The back light is coming on, I am pretty sure of that. 

I can run the program on my laptop since it uses the same monitor. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 02, 2013, 01:25:35 AM
EDID Viewer shows two monitors, not sure if one is something I plugged in once long ago and it saved the info, so I will post both.

Quote
Vendor/Product Identification:

   Monitor Name :    
   Monitor Serial Number :    
   Manufacturer Name :    BOE
   Product Id :    89B
   Serial Number :    0
   Week Of Manufacture :    0
   Year Of Manufacture :    2007
   EDIDVersion :    V1.3
   Number Of Extension Flag :    0

Display parameters:

   Video Input Definition :    Digital Signal
   DFP1X Compatible Interface :    False
   Max Horizontal Image Size :    260 mm
   Max Vertical Image Size :    160 mm
   Max Display Size :    12 Inches

Power Management and Features:

   Standby :    Not Supported
   Suspend :    Not Supported
   ActiveOff :    Not Supported
   Video Input :    1
   sRGB Default ColorSpace :    False
   Default GTF :    Not Supported
   Prefered Timing Mode :    True

Gamma/Color and Etablished Timings:

   Display Gamma :    2.2
   Red :    x = 0.563 - y = 0.354
   Green :    x = 0.331 - y = 0.542
   Blue :    x = 0.146 - y = 0.117
   White :    x = 0.3 - y = 0.32

   Etablished Timings :    

   Display Type :    RGB Color Display

Standard Timing:


Preferred Detailed Timing:

   Pixel Clock :    69.3 Mhz

   Horizontal Active :    1280 pixels
   Horizontal Blanking :    160 pixels
   Horizontal Sync Offset :    48 pixels
   Horizontal Sync Pulse Width :    32 pixels
   Horizontal Border :    0 pixels
   Horizontal Size :    261 mm

   Vertical Active :    800 lines
   Vertical Blanking :    23 lines
   Vertical Sync Offset :    3 lines
   Vertical Sync Pulse Width :    6 lines
   Vertical Border :    0 lines
   Vertical Size :    163 mm

   Input Type :    Digital Separate
   Interlaced :    False
   VerticalPolarity :    False
   HorizontalPolarity :    False

Monitor Range Limit:

   Maximum Vertical Frequency :    0 Hz
   Minimum Vertical Frequency :    0 Hz
   Maximum Horizontal Frequency :    0 KHz
   Minimum Horizontal Frequency :    0 KHz
   Maximum Pixel Clock :    0 MHz

Stereo Display:

   Stereo Display :    Normal display (no stereo)

RAW Data:

0x00    00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 09 E5 9B 08 00 00 00 00   
0x10    00 11 01 03 80 1A 10 78 0A 6F 8C 90 5A 54 8A 25   
0x20    1E 4C 52 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01   
0x30    01 01 01 01 01 01 12 1B 00 A0 50 20 17 30 30 20   
0x40    36 00 05 A3 10 00 00 19 00 00 00 FE 00 0A 20 20   
0x50    20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FE 00 42   
0x60    4F 45 20 48 59 44 49 53 0A 20 20 20 00 00 00 FE   
0x70    00 48 56 31 32 31 57 58 35 2D 31 31 30 0A 00 61   

Quote
Vendor/Product Identification:

   Monitor Name :    
   Monitor Serial Number :    
   Manufacturer Name :    SEC
   Product Id :    4641
   Serial Number :    0
   Week Of Manufacture :    0
   Year Of Manufacture :    2007
   EDIDVersion :    V1.3
   Number Of Extension Flag :    0

Display parameters:

   Video Input Definition :    Digital Signal
   DFP1X Compatible Interface :    False
   Max Horizontal Image Size :    260 mm
   Max Vertical Image Size :    160 mm
   Max Display Size :    12 Inches

Power Management and Features:

   Standby :    Not Supported
   Suspend :    Not Supported
   ActiveOff :    Not Supported
   Video Input :    1
   sRGB Default ColorSpace :    False
   Default GTF :    Not Supported
   Prefered Timing Mode :    True

Gamma/Color and Etablished Timings:

   Display Gamma :    2.2
   Red :    x = 0.58 - y = 0.34
   Green :    x = 0.31 - y = 0.55
   Blue :    x = 0.155 - y = 0.155
   White :    x = 0.313 - y = 0.329

   Etablished Timings :    

   Display Type :    RGB Color Display

Standard Timing:


Preferred Detailed Timing:

   Pixel Clock :    69.3 Mhz

   Horizontal Active :    1280 pixels
   Horizontal Blanking :    135 pixels
   Horizontal Sync Offset :    16 pixels
   Horizontal Sync Pulse Width :    48 pixels
   Horizontal Border :    0 pixels
   Horizontal Size :    261 mm

   Vertical Active :    800 lines
   Vertical Blanking :    16 lines
   Vertical Sync Offset :    1 lines
   Vertical Sync Pulse Width :    3 lines
   Vertical Border :    0 lines
   Vertical Size :    163 mm

   Input Type :    Digital Separate
   Interlaced :    False
   VerticalPolarity :    False
   HorizontalPolarity :    False

Monitor Range Limit:

   Maximum Vertical Frequency :    0 Hz
   Minimum Vertical Frequency :    0 Hz
   Maximum Horizontal Frequency :    0 KHz
   Minimum Horizontal Frequency :    0 KHz
   Maximum Pixel Clock :    0 MHz

Stereo Display:

   Stereo Display :    Normal display (no stereo)

RAW Data:

0x00    00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 4C A3 41 46 00 00 00 00   
0x10    00 11 01 03 80 1A 10 78 0A 87 F5 94 57 4F 8C 27   
0x20    27 50 54 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01   
0x30    01 01 01 01 01 01 12 1B 00 87 50 20 10 30 10 30   
0x40    13 00 05 A3 10 00 00 19 00 00 00 0F 00 00 00 00   
0x50    00 00 00 00 00 23 87 02 64 01 00 00 00 FE 00 53   
0x60    41 4D 53 55 4E 47 0A 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FE   
0x70    00 4C 54 4E 31 32 31 57 34 2D 4C 30 31 0A 00 AE   


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 02, 2013, 01:54:53 AM
BOE vs. SEC manufacturer. Which one matches better?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 02, 2013, 01:59:20 AM
It does say BOE-Hydis on the label.  Although my monitor calibration software thinks it's a Samsung, and lots of websites claim it is supposed to be a Samsung. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on September 02, 2013, 06:47:13 AM
The Hydis screen is the top one. I've taken screen shots of the edid info in the datasheet for you panel to compare to what you have recorded (see below), first glance looks like a match, but i don't have time to check they match thoroughly.

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]


Doh, just spotted my spelling mistake in the filename, it should be hydis not hynis.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 02, 2013, 10:55:30 PM
So I heard back from the seller.  It isn't quite clear but he makes it sound like if I trace the red lines coming from the side with the white dot, they should go into the left side of the screen connector.  Well if that is true then I've had that plug in backwards this whole time. 

Quote
Please kindly check that there are two images. One is connected to the controller board while the other one is connected to the laptop screen. However, the one i remarked as red on your screen is the power cable. You have to align the white spot side of the cable. Please kindly let us know if you have any other questions and we are more than willing to assist you any further.

(http://i.imgur.com/nt0DWok.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/s2vvBv2.jpg)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 03, 2013, 01:39:15 AM
Also if true it still doesn't work.  I think I need to get a new cable so I can hook it back up to my laptop and make sure the stupid thing still works before I move forward with anything. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 03, 2013, 01:56:14 AM
What did you connect backward? like they say, follow the power lines. They must connect (test them for connectivity to be sure while the cable is unconnected).   Then connect the LVDS side, check for voltage levels on the power side pins (at the other end of the cable).

hope that make sense.  :P  difficult to explain


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 03, 2013, 02:01:30 AM
If I am understanding them correctly, then they are telling me the wires coming from the circle on the plug (http://i.imgur.com/nt0DWok.jpg) are the power wires, and that the power wires should line up with the circle they have placed over my photo on the LCD screen (http://i.imgur.com/s2vvBv2.jpg).  Problem is, the plug went in easier the other way around, so all of my tests with it have been with the LCD end of the plug being backwards.  I have since flipped it, and though it took some work I got it plugged in.  The LCD back light comes on, but the screen is mostly black with colored lines on both sides.  I don't know if it's a programing issue or if having the plug in backwards has ruined the LCD.  If I can get another cable to connect my LCD back up to my laptop then I can check to see if the LCD still works. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 03, 2013, 02:13:01 AM
With the red power lines going to the left side of the screen connector:
(http://i.imgur.com/N4lir3s.jpg)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 03, 2013, 02:35:39 AM
Send them that picture. Along with a picture of both ends connected so they see how this is connected and how it looks.

I assume you do not see the OSD -- or does the OSD menu make any difference in the lines?

B.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 03, 2013, 05:04:15 AM
Nope, no difference with the OSD on or off. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on September 03, 2013, 07:08:30 AM
But the OSD does show up?

I would normally suggest at this point that one of the ribbon cables going to the screen has slightly pulled away, but you haven't taken the screen apart yet, hmm.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 03, 2013, 07:19:41 AM
No, the OSD does not show up.  There is no picture.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 13, 2013, 09:32:01 PM
The seller is sending me another kit to try out.  Hopefully that one works.

In the meantime, does anyone have an opinion on shielding materials?  RF boxes are tin plated steel but they are a bit costly, I can get an aluminum enclosure with 1/8" thick walls for far cheaper.  Here is a thread I made about it - http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=2335.msg19270


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on September 14, 2013, 07:48:01 AM
That's great news, hopefully this will resolve your problem. I've replied to you other post regarding materials.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on September 23, 2013, 04:34:52 PM
First off great work.  I have been originally following Trashie, but I recently stumbled upon your build.  Currently I have two digitizers from a couple of Toshiba tablets, they have different serial numbers but the boards on the digitizer match the boards from Throwing Chickens, wires and all.  I just ordered my Teensy and am going to give it a go.  Will post revised numbers and hope to start a build thread.  Thanks for all the work with yours, between you and Trashie I have been tinkering with each method, since my connectors, and cables appear to be an exact match to throwing chickens digitizer, I figure I will move ahead with the serial to USB method.  Thanks


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on September 24, 2013, 07:00:59 AM
Teensy was in when I got home... contol board numbers match... ran through and connected everything, loaded teensy and thedrivers bernard mentioned and it works... just have what appears to be a buffering issue. Pen down moves, clicks, buttons and eraser all work.  However, cursor stops moving until pen is removed and placed back... hid output show continuous data stream and cursor position change until out of range even when it has paused on the screen. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on September 24, 2013, 01:42:37 PM
"hid output" -- you mean using a hid tracing tool (like my "Wacom USB HID packet tracer") -- so that would be the output of the Teensy. Yes, it generates an endless stream of data (when the pen is in proximity) -- this is what the Wacom driver expects -- else it thinks something is wrong and "removes" the pen.

Instead try the "debug mode". Use a ISDV4 template but with the word "debug" in it.  Then use the hid_listen tool from prjc.com (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/hid_listen.html) to see the output messages. Note that in debug mode, the Teensy is not emulating a Wacom, so do not expect the mouse to move! :)  Start the hid_listen *before* connecting the USB so we catch the first messages (where it says "Bzz! Bzz!"). To not clutter the output perform only the simplest moves "that fails" (sticky pen you said?) and send us the output for further analysis. One way to do this is to redirect the output (stdout) to a file using >.  Something like:

hid_listen.exe > out.txt

There isn't a lot of people using the Teensy in ISDV4 mode, so I am not surprised if there are a few hickups, but I would expect the "basic" to work correctly nonetheless. Let's see what the Teensy has to say about it (i.e. debug mode).


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on September 24, 2013, 06:30:03 PM
Will take care of it next chance I get.  Also, it was mentioned that there could be a conflict with the usb emulation setting in the bios.  I will try that first then change it back and produce the output log.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on October 04, 2013, 04:20:41 AM
Ran the Hid_listen tool with the penabled debug loaded and output the following attached file.
In debug it is showing that it has not failed (sticky pen).  However, when the penabled intuos is loaded into the teensy 2, the cursor moves(both pen and eraser) and the button clicks are identified as well as the press pen to screen button.  However, after about 2-3 seconds it freezes until I pull the pen away and place it near the screen again.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on October 04, 2013, 02:32:48 PM
Looking at the trace, absolutely nothing works. Well -- you *are* receiving something -- which probably means you have the RX connected OK.
The first line:

Pressure Max=248, X Max=39993, Y Max=7139, Has Tilt: Tilt X Max=40, Tilt Y Max=13, Version=1245 

has totally invalid values and afterwards, no packets were decoded. (when one is decoded, you see messages about it -- now you only see the bytes on the wire without anything).   I am actually surprised you get the mouse to move! 

My guess: the baud rate speed is wrong.  Or maybe for that "debug template" the speed was different.

Next step:  either try to randomly change the baud rate (NORMAL and INITIAL) in the configuration (there are only a handful of choices) or we can try to turn the Teensy into a virtual serial port (special .hex file to flash) and do more analysis.



Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on October 04, 2013, 06:02:17 PM
I will look at the various baud rate configurations.  So far the baud combinations I have tried, were with the intuos template and the device became unresponsive.  I have not yet tried to output the debug information for the different bauds, and will do that next chance I get.  I know it is not an issue with the digitizer as both that I have create the same response.

The sticking was there on the first digitizer, but when I switched the cable to the other one it worked for almost 30 seconds without freezing, once it started freezing the removal of the pen from the tablet would begin to decrease the time between freezing. 

Will post revised info after my next tests


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on October 04, 2013, 06:09:14 PM
Intuos template?  This is an ISDV4 device you have no?  (Wacom TabletPC penenabled/digitizer)

Of course the wrong baud rate normally means *nothing* works -- not that it works a little.  So it is puzzling.  For sure that debug trace shows that it was not working.  In these cases, you have to walk before you run, so the debug output must work before you can turn on the full thing.  What is the "working" baud rate?  (there are only 3 choices:  9600, 19200 and 38400)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on October 04, 2013, 09:59:58 PM
Sorry, didn't clarify, the intuos driver was the ISDV4 Penabled Intuos 12x18 template.

So far I have been able to get a response from both 19200 and 38400, I will run a series of tests using the penabled debug template and try the various combinations.  I will create an output for each and log the trials.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on October 04, 2013, 11:10:19 PM
Intuos: Ah yes, my bad. Of course, you were talking about what it is emulating on the USB side.  In "debug" mode it does not really matter anyways. It would produce a different debug output, but nothing special.

Working with two baud rates? That's a bit weird for ISDV4.  My experience is that an ISDV4 board would either be at 19200 or 38400 (but not both).  38400 baud being more popular.

So for your board, I would pick 38400 first. The typical values for pressure is 255 and no support for tilt (and if there is support, it is always a -60..+60 degrees max). The max X and max Y must have a ratio that "fit" the tablet size ratio.   39993 and 7139 (~40:7) is out of wack. Also we should see additional messages about the pen going up and down and X/Y position, etc.

If all fails, the next step is to setup the virtual serial port (flash the .hex found in https://code.google.com/p/waxbee/downloads/list ) and use a serial terminal emulation software (like RealTerm, Putty or TeraTerm).   Then you can enter ISDV4 commands manually. ( http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/linuxwacom/index.php?title=ISDV4_Protocol )  -- for example 0 and 1 (to stop and start sending pen data) and * to query the board.  Of course you will receive binary output (i.e. garbled text). But you can test that the 0 works by moving the pen and checking that data is not being generated. (and then try "1" to see if you have data appearing).  With RealTerm you can use "Hex" display to see the bytes in binary format.   When you see that the commands 0 and 1 works, that means the baud rate is correct.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on October 05, 2013, 02:34:44 AM
Through the virtual serial port, I have a 0 and 1 response from baud rate 38400. However, the debug driver is still producing the same results.

I did export a Wacom_hid_dump-0-1e from the penabled intuos driver and was able to export the stream.  I'm still trying to see when exactly the cursor stopped moving but it happened towards the end of this stream.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on October 05, 2013, 03:07:02 AM
did a quick test with the penabled debug template.  When using the penabled isdv4 intuos template I noticed it was set to Wacom protocol 5 and the debug was set at protocol 4, when setting the baud rate to 38400 and the protocol to 5 on the debug template I was able to actually produce something of use I think.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on October 07, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
So I got the replacement controller in and it it doesn't produce an image either, and the replacement gets hot while the first one did not.  I don't know what to do.  Either they can't support my monitor, the monitor is dead, or they are incompetent. 

With the replacement I ordered a controller kit for the LP150E05 (A2)(K1) monitor.  This one is pretty standard and has been supported for a very long time, but even that was programed incorrectly and the image was all messed up.  Check it out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTjTIE00oU4

Notice how the image is jittery and doesn't fill up the entire screen.  So I am done with this seller and have reordered from NJYTouch.  Unfortunately he does not have the controller kit for the SU-12W18A-01X so I don't know what is going to happen with this project.  If someone finds a compatible kit let me know. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on October 07, 2013, 05:40:33 PM
Looking at the 3 debug outputs, it is clear that the bytes seen with the 38400 baud are, by far, much closer to being good.  So 38400 it is, no need to persue with the other speeds.

I assume you modified both the initial and normal baud rate. (in the case of ISDV4 only one is looked at, I think the normal one).

I do not have much time to look at it with more details right now. I'll try to get to it when I can. You might want to try older versions of WaxBee like waxbee-0-12a.zip for example. Just for the kicks of it -- it might output different debug messages. I am quite surprised not to see much messages in there actually.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bernard on October 07, 2013, 06:08:33 PM
I examined the code a bit closer.

At the begining, the trace seem to be missing a portion (or something is not right). It's quite weird actually. I would have expected a line like "Sending *...". It is screwed up because it seems we do not have the whole packet. Maybe there is too much information to output in too little time and the USB logic can't keep up (there isn't a big buffer in there).

If you can read source code, the ISDV4 logic is here: https://code.google.com/p/waxbee/source/browse/WaxB_Adb2Usb/isdv4_serial.cpp  I am expecting you to pick the template :  "Penenabled ISDV4 Debug.tmpl.txt"  with the only modification of using 38400 baud (the INITIAL is ignored for ISDV4, only the NORMAL is used, but there is no harm in setting both to 38400).


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: molgarrion on October 08, 2013, 06:45:42 PM
I will output the debug again... I tried another wacom driver, from wacom's site and it works without major issue.  So I will dump another debug file


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bumhee34 on October 22, 2013, 01:00:45 AM
Ran the Hid_listen tool with the penabled debug loaded and output the following attached file.
In debug it is showing that it has not failed (sticky pen).  However, when the penabled intuos is loaded into the teensy 2, the cursor moves(both pen and eraser) and the button clicks are identified as well as the press pen to screen button.  However, after about 2-3 seconds it freezes until I pull the pen away and place it near the screen again.
I had the same experience with you. I don't remember the solution exactly. In my memory, i changed the pressure level, and reboot the system. It was solved magically.
Maybe I modified baud rate?? I do not remember clearly, but anyway it worked out after rebooting the computer. I dont understaned what happened.
In addition, I soldered onto the pin directly.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: bumhee34 on October 22, 2013, 01:06:24 AM
So I got the replacement controller in and it it doesn't produce an image either, and the replacement gets hot while the first one did not.  I don't know what to do.  Either they can't support my monitor, the monitor is dead, or they are incompetent. 

With the replacement I ordered a controller kit for the LP150E05 (A2)(K1) monitor.  This one is pretty standard and has been supported for a very long time, but even that was programed incorrectly and the image was all messed up.  Check it out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTjTIE00oU4

Notice how the image is jittery and doesn't fill up the entire screen.  So I am done with this seller and have reordered from NJYTouch.  Unfortunately he does not have the controller kit for the SU-12W18A-01X so I don't know what is going to happen with this project.  If someone finds a compatible kit let me know. 
First of all, the resolution between your LCD and LP150E05 is totally different. Yours is wide screen while the other is 4:3 screen with 1440x1050. That is why the screen cannot be filled fully.
My suggestion is that you order the controller for the other monitors which have the same resolution with your LCD with same lvds pin ordering.
The jittery screen is normal when you have wrong controller. So, the screen looks ok. Hope you could find another controller which fits to your screen.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on October 22, 2013, 01:17:18 AM
So I got the replacement controller in and it it doesn't produce an image either, and the replacement gets hot while the first one did not.  I don't know what to do.  Either they can't support my monitor, the monitor is dead, or they are incompetent. 

With the replacement I ordered a controller kit for the LP150E05 (A2)(K1) monitor.  This one is pretty standard and has been supported for a very long time, but even that was programed incorrectly and the image was all messed up.  Check it out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTjTIE00oU4

Notice how the image is jittery and doesn't fill up the entire screen.  So I am done with this seller and have reordered from NJYTouch.  Unfortunately he does not have the controller kit for the SU-12W18A-01X so I don't know what is going to happen with this project.  If someone finds a compatible kit let me know. 
First of all, the resolution between your LCD and LP150E05 is totally different. Yours is wide screen while the other is 4:3 screen with 1440x1050. That is why the screen cannot be filled fully.
My suggestion is that you order the controller for the other monitors which have the same resolution with your LCD with same lvds pin ordering.
The jittery screen is normal when you have wrong controller. So, the screen looks ok. Hope you could find another controller which fits to your screen.

Well the LP150E05 *shouldn't* be a problem as it has been supported for a very long time now, but they still managed to send me one that would not process the image correctly.  I have ordered a replacement from another source and it should hopefully be here sometime this week. 

As for the controller kit for the SU-12W18A-01X, I don't know what I am going to do.  There was one other seller who said he could support it, although his kit cost 2-3X more than the other.  I might give it a try, or I might just have to abandon this build and just focus on the LP150E05. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on October 22, 2013, 07:48:35 AM
 ??? I am confused, perhaps you can clarify. You have the panel from the HP 2710P which is a 12.1" 1280x800 WXGA panel, but you are trying to control it with a controller kit programmed to work with an LP150E05?

As bumhee34 said, the LP150E05 panel is a 15" 1400x1050 SXGA+ which is not compatible with the HP 2710P at all. If my summary here is wrong, please do clarify as I hate to see someone get stuck at the first hurdle.

If my summary is correct then this explains why you cannot see a clear image and may also explain why the controller is getting hot as it is working harder than it should and presumably pushing more current. I would advise stopping use of this controller with your panel before you damage something. Your options from here are: 1.find a controller which can drive your panel (ie resolution matched, bit matched, refresh rate matched etc). 2. buy a LP150E05 for use with this controller.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on October 23, 2013, 07:22:34 AM
No, two different panels, three different controllers (two for the SU-12W18A-01X and one for the LP150E05), all from the same seller and none of them work with right with their respective panels. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on October 23, 2013, 09:32:05 AM
Ok, well that makes a bit more sense. Perhaps it might help us to help you if you listed all the screens with there respective controllers to see if we can pick up on something that has been overlooked?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on October 25, 2013, 07:17:26 AM
I've gone over the SU-12W18A-01X (actually the HV121WX5-110, SU is the digitizer) previously, but the controller for the LP150E05 was purchased when the seller was sending me a replacement for the first HV121WX5-110 controller that didn't work.  I only noted it because not a single controller this seller sent me worked right.  They were very kind and easy to deal with, but I guess what I am saying is stick with NJYTouch.  The seller refunded me all of my money and I bought a controller for the LP150E05 from NJYTouch (unfortunately they did not carry one for the HV121WX5-110) and it arrived yesterday and works perfectly fine.  The NJYTouch board was also programed in English, which the other board was not. 

I will have to start a new thread for the LP150E05 build.  There is at least one more eBay seller that claims they can support the HV121WX5-110 panel, but it's double the price and I've kind of lose steam on this project.    Depending on how the LP150E05 Wacom Intuos build goes I may revisit later, or if someone else finds a working controller kit I might get interested again. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on October 25, 2013, 10:13:38 AM
Your experience with sellers other than NJYTouch is sad to hear, I was considering purchasing a controller from someone other than NJYTouch but now I think otherwise. At least now you have a working panel and so your build can continue!  ;D


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on August 12, 2016, 08:07:26 AM
So I have stumbled across your thread and am going to resurrect it. I know, nothing like a necro.... annnnywaaaay. Starting work on the HP elitebook 2730p screen and digitizer. waiting for the controller and the teensy to get here in tandem with a PC build. hopefully i can also post video of the ordeal to link to. I have pulled as much information as a can from this thread and if you notice have added it to the back of the panel for quick reference while i work.(http://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-20733875/images/57ad762cf26bf9W9J2Tt/WIN_20160812_000403.JPG)


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on August 13, 2016, 10:51:01 PM
Let us know how it goes.  I never got a controller for the monitor to work and I just didn't want to keep sinking money into it. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on August 13, 2016, 11:50:29 PM
I have a few of these screens, so hopefully at least one will work with the controller. sadly they take forever to get here... will update as soon as parts arrive.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 11, 2016, 09:01:58 PM
So an update I have ordered the controllers, I found one through a wholesaler who had access to the actual laptops to test if the controller worked before sending me one. the teensy is on its way as well, ill need to have a little help with the programming of the teensy but the hardware setup won't be an issue.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 14, 2016, 09:14:49 AM
I have a couple of 2730p screens here, they work really well. Probably the best choice for 12'' builds because they come with the chemically-hardened front glass already on there. For anyone considering them - see if you can find BOE/HYDIS HX121WX1's instead of HV121WX4's. The HX series of panels are transflective, making them readable in direct sunlight (what HP's marketing team are calling OutdoorView™). Digitizer works both with the teensy and with direct serial on Linux.

Let us know how it goes.  I never got a controller for the monitor to work and I just didn't want to keep sinking money into it.  

What was your issue with the controller? I've been able to drive mine just fine... About it getting hot - that sounds like an LVDS cable inserted backwards or the wrong way. The way they attach to the controller board is tricky - nothing is marked, and there are more pins than on the connector. Also the connector on the LCD's side can be inserted both ways making it even easier to mess up. Can you post pics of the connectors and setup?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: LTN121t on September 18, 2016, 05:47:12 AM
Quote
The way they attach to the controller board is tricky - nothing is marked, and there are more pins than on the connector. Also the connector on the LCD's side can be inserted both ways making it even easier to mess up. Can you post pics of the connectors and setup?

For the LCDs and controller boards, most of them are LVDS so the pins should be common. Datasheets are available for most LCD panels with detailed information and pinouts for the connector, which are different for every LCD. Even if the connectors are the same, often the pin arrangement is different. My controller board had the LVDS pinout on the bottom, so it would just be a matter of reading the datasheet and getting the right wire to the right pin.

However, for the new LED LCDs, I have found that they need extra pins (PWM, brightness, LED enable, LED power (usually above 5 volts) etc) that are not supplied on many LVDS controller boards which only provide the LVDS signal and power for the display's logic board. I have no idea how you would use a LED panel with a 'universal' controller, but I have seen eBay sellers selling specific controller boards for some LED LCDs. Don't know if they work, though.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 18, 2016, 06:05:00 AM
I ordered one pre-assembled, from a usually reputable place, hooked it up today, just about burned my house down (ok just my desk, but still). I emailed them, they are offering up damages and to replace the screen and controller, at this point i just want my money back and compensation for my wacom screen. will update when possible.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 18, 2016, 10:27:46 AM
I have no idea how you would use a LED panel with a 'universal' controller, but I have seen eBay sellers selling specific controller boards for some LED LCDs. Don't know if they work, though.

The LED-related wires come out of the same connector on the LCD's side, they're just separated out to a different connector on the board's side and plug in where the inverter normally goes. Way more compact. Newer controller boards are designed with that in mind so that you can use them with both CCFL and LED panels. Got mine off Aliexpress, not sure if they're on eBay.

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]

I ordered one pre-assembled, from a usually reputable place, hooked it up today, just about burned my house down (ok just my desk, but still). I emailed them, they are offering up damages and to replace the screen and controller, at this point i just want my money back and compensation for my wacom screen. will update when possible.

Oh shit, what happened? Going up in flames is definitely not what i would've expected...


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 18, 2016, 05:00:00 PM
it looks like they routed the 12v rail into a mosfet and then into the backlight feed voltage rail of the lcd board. screen is no more, the have offered to replace it and are trying to figure out what happened


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 18, 2016, 07:26:01 PM
The backlight on these panels is 12V so it sounds about right? Unless the connector was inserted backwards and you're feeding that 12V into the 3.3V LVDS side... As i mentioned before, the connector is tricky because it can fit backwards. Or perhaps you got a defective mosfet...


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 18, 2016, 07:35:21 PM
it blew the high voltage backlight transformer on the right side of the board before the board caught fire, so my guess is a bad or incorrect mosfet.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 18, 2016, 07:41:23 PM
Can you post pictures? LED backlights don't need high voltage, it's CCFLs that need high-voltage AC (via inverter) to work. If they supplied a second board that would likely be a DC-DC converter.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 20, 2016, 08:57:52 AM
looks like i am better off ordering a 12.1" kit instead, anyone know of a good US supplier, i can move the wacom pad and the safety screen over to the new kit...


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: LTN121t on September 20, 2016, 12:52:45 PM

The LED-related wires come out of the same connector on the LCD's side, they're just separated out to a different connector on the board's side and plug in where the inverter normally goes. Way more compact. Newer controller boards are designed with that in mind so that you can use them with both CCFL and LED panels. Got mine off Aliexpress, not sure if they're on eBay.

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]


What's the foil for? Though I suspect it's got something to do with the 'jitter' problem...


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 20, 2016, 07:16:20 PM
What's the foil for? Though I suspect it's got something to do with the 'jitter' problem...

Foil is preinstalled from the factory on HP laptops. It's most likely there to shield the LCD and digitizer boards from the wifi antennas that sit near those places. It has nothing to do with jitter since the digitizer already has a foil backing as part of its construction.

looks like i am better off ordering a 12.1" kit instead, anyone know of a good US supplier, i can move the wacom pad and the safety screen over to the new kit...

Do you mean a controller kit or an LCD screen?


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 20, 2016, 07:40:01 PM
the foil is for grounding and shielding purposes, ill be replacing it with conductive foam instead


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: dracomenda on September 20, 2016, 07:41:57 PM
i'll have to order both, they fried my only hydis screen so its back to the drawing board at the moment, need to setup the teensy though and get the wacom pad ready for the new screen when i find one


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 20, 2016, 08:55:39 PM
i'll have to order both, they fried my only hydis screen so its back to the drawing board at the moment, need to setup the teensy though and get the wacom pad ready for the new screen when i find one


Since you're looking for a screen, check out "discountedlaptopparts" on ebay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-EliteBook-2730p-LCD-Touch-Screen-with-Digitizer-Matte-12-1-HX121WX1-/380865241056

They have great deals on this stuff with free US shipping, it's where i got mine from. The link above is to an HX121WX1 from an HP 2730p. Like i mentioned earlier, that model is transflective and more readable outdoors.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on September 27, 2016, 02:04:49 AM
What was your issue with the controller? I've been able to drive mine just fine... About it getting hot - that sounds like an LVDS cable inserted backwards or the wrong way. The way they attach to the controller board is tricky - nothing is marked, and there are more pins than on the connector. Also the connector on the LCD's side can be inserted both ways making it even easier to mess up. Can you post pics of the connectors and setup?

Keep in mind, it has been 3 years since I messed with any of this stuff. If you go back to this post here (http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=2325.msg19198#msg19198) you can find in this thread where I start discussing the issues I was having.  Looking back at it again, the backlight would come on, but I'd get mostly a black image, occasionally with some colored lines.  Also, this is the 2710p tablet, not the 2730p that you linked to, with different model numbers for the screens and digitizers, so they may not be the exact same. 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Ertew on September 27, 2016, 10:11:49 PM
Can you post pictures? LED backlights don't need high voltage, it's CCFLs that need high-voltage AC (via inverter) to work. If they supplied a second board that would likely be a DC-DC converter.
You're wrong.
CCFL need inverter - constant current driver (about 5-10mA) with high voltage (100-1000V during work, more at startup). Usually we named it inverter because output are AC. But CCFL will work on DC too.
LED need driver - constant current DC driver (from 20mA up to 1A) with usually 18-100V voltage generated via step-up DC/DC circuit.

Larger panels have separate LVDS and backlight (raw LEDs) and need separate backlight driver.
Smaller panels usually integrates driver at same board as rest of LCD logic. But driver still exist and You can easily found cable between LEDs and driver section.

The "traditional" 6-pin backlight connector on universal drivers are just control (on/off and sometimes PWM) output and power supply output for typical backlight driver, no matter type of driver.

BTW, You can buy expensive HDMI/LVDS converter with build-in constant current LED driver like this unit:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HDMI-VGA-AV-Remote-LCD-Controller-for-15-6-LP156WH4-TL-A1-LED-Screen-1366x768-Free/32599731171.html
Notice connector on top-left of the board, the same as CCFL connector. Only typical CCFL transformer is missing, so it must be output for LEDs.




I have no idea how you would use a LED panel with a 'universal' controller, but I have seen eBay sellers selling specific controller boards for some LED LCDs. Don't know if they work, though.

The LED-related wires come out of the same connector on the LCD's side, they're just separated out to a different connector on the board's side and plug in where the inverter normally goes. Way more compact. Newer controller boards are designed with that in mind so that you can use them with both CCFL and LED panels. Got mine off Aliexpress, not sure if they're on eBay.

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]
Can You check power consumption for this converter? I mean input current and voltage for bare board (LCD disconnected) when converter fully working. If no, please at least check temperature of main chip after few minutes of work.
I'm searching for energy-efficient and cool LVDS converter (VGA or HDMI input) for my mobile rPi project. Converters based on TSUMV59 are great but need to much power and generate too much heat. Even HDMI->VGA->LVDS works cooler than this.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on September 28, 2016, 08:27:53 PM
You're wrong.
CCFL need inverter - constant current driver (about 5-10mA) with high voltage (100-1000V during work, more at startup). Usually we named it inverter because output are AC. But CCFL will work on DC too.
LED need driver - constant current DC driver (from 20mA up to 1A) with usually 18-100V voltage generated via step-up DC/DC circuit.

Come on, there's nothing wrong with what i said. Using CCFL's with DC is impractical and almost never used. You won't find LCD panels with a DC-operated CCFL backlight.

Quote
Can You check power consumption for this converter? I mean input current and voltage for bare board (LCD disconnected) when converter fully working. If no, please at least check temperature of main chip after few minutes of work.
I'm searching for energy-efficient and cool LVDS converter (VGA or HDMI input) for my mobile rPi project. Converters based on TSUMV59 are great but need to much power and generate too much heat. Even HDMI->VGA->LVDS works cooler than this.

It gets very hot at the voltage regulator, so i wouldn't recommend that particular one. They run off 12V too, which would be a headache since you'll need to regulate it down to 5V for the rPi. I remember a store selling driver boards that were designed to be used specifically with a raspberry pi (http://www.watterott.com/en/7-LCD-LVDS-RaspberryPi), but were meant for 7'' displays. Ridiculously expensive too. In my personal opinion, an rPi is a pretty poor computer, there are cheap second-hand tablet and laptop motherboards that are much more suitable as mobile devices, with a charge controller and LVDS driver in the one thin-profile board. The 2730p i got off eBay for 20$ has comparable dimensions and weight to a raspberry pi hack-top, except with a faster everything.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: ThrowingChicken on October 06, 2016, 11:39:01 PM
i'll have to order both, they fried my only hydis screen so its back to the drawing board at the moment, need to setup the teensy though and get the wacom pad ready for the new screen when i find one


Since you're looking for a screen, check out "discountedlaptopparts" on ebay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-EliteBook-2730p-LCD-Touch-Screen-with-Digitizer-Matte-12-1-HX121WX1-/380865241056

They have great deals on this stuff with free US shipping, it's where i got mine from. The link above is to an HX121WX1 from an HP 2730p. Like i mentioned earlier, that model is transflective and more readable outdoors.

I went ahead and picked one of these up.  Which LCD controller are you using?  Is the pin out for the Teensy the same as it was for the 2710p digitizer? 


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on November 02, 2016, 02:30:08 PM
I see you're worried about power consumption and heat from the LVDS controller. My suggestion would be to get some cheap switching dc step down modules (such as LM2596) and remove or bypass the linear regulators.

The LM2596 (variable module) is good for stepping down voltages from up to 40V to between 37V and 1.2V and can handle 3A of current. You can also get fixed output versions in values 3.3V, 5V, and 12V.

As a quick note: I would suggest though that some heat would definitely be generated if you stepped down 40V to 1.2V.

[attachment=1]

They don't get hot and they're much more efficient than a linear reg. Only problem here is that you trade of efficiency and thermal benefit with space.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Pesho on November 02, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: ThrowingChicken
I went ahead and picked one of these up.  Which LCD controller are you using?  Is the pin out for the Teensy the same as it was for the 2710p digitizer? 

I replied to your email about this, but i'm going to post the info here too for anyone interested:

I'm using this controller here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HDMI-LVDS-Controller-Board-40-Pins-Lvds-Cable-Kit-for-Raspberry-PI-3-LP156WH2-TLA1-TLE1/32645792288.html

I told them to program it for an HX121WX1, should work equally well on the non-transflective HV121's too.
- Be warned that it does get kinda hot.
- You will have to send them a message with the datasheet and ask them include the correct cable for your panel, which is an extra 7$. They will ask you to add the controller to your shopping cart etc. without paying. It's so that they can readjust the price first before you pay.

For the Teensy - Yes, pinout is the same across all the serial digitizers with a 14-pin connector, at least the ones i have here. It's:

 
9 - RX (D2 on the Teensy)
10 - TX (D3 on the Teensy)
13 - VCC
14 - GND

I think you can use Pin 1 as ground also, check on your connector. I've tested this setup on at least two 2730p digitizers (SU-12W18A-04X), one from a Toshiba Portege R400 (SU-12W07E-01X) and some 4:3 ones from an HP TC4400 (SU-025-C02) - all of them work.

My suggestion would be to get some cheap switching dc step down modules (such as LM2596) and remove or bypass the linear regulators.

Not a bad idea, but doing that is not as easy since the board is entirely SMD components. Even just a beefier regulator should do the job, but putting it on there might pose a challenge.


Title: Re: Experimenting with the HP 2710p Tablet PC digitizer (SU-12W18A-01X)
Post by: Aerendraca on November 02, 2016, 04:18:32 PM
True it would be a bit fiddly, but it's do-able.

Interesting board by the way, I've not seen that one kicking around before.