Screen Tablet malarky => Design issues => Topic started by: TheIdeaCan on September 04, 2013, 03:49:52 AM

Title: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 04, 2013, 03:49:52 AM
So I finally broke down and decided to build a K-Jintiq / Cintriq style tablet using a Wacom Intuos 3 PTZ-930 9x12 and a LG LP150E05-A2K1 LCD screen. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the RM.5451 LCD controller that was used in both previous builds. I don't know if NJYTouch was sold out of them or if that model of controller was discontinued. They just told me it wasn't available. So instead they sold me a B.NTA92C controller that they said would work and is supposedly programed to control the LG screen.

However, when I hooked them up to test out the screen (using the DVI connection), I'm getting a ton of jitter/flicker with equally spaced vertical lines across the screen that is reminiscent of an antique CRT monitor.
On top of that, the lines cut through any text/graphics on the screen and there's something funky going on in the lower left corner of the screen.
Of course I made the mistake of not fully testing the screen and controller when they arrived as I was still trying to source a new graphics card at the time and any chance of returning either isn't going to happen.

So what are your thoughts? Is the screen fragged or is the controller not programmed correctly or could it be both? I'd like to get going on getting this thing built, but if I can't get the screen to work on it's own without the Intuos thrown into the mix, I'm dead in the water. Any help you guys could offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

One last thing to either of the guys from the K-Jintiq build or the creator of the Cintriq. Where did you get your replacement CCFL backlights from and what was the length you used? I was thinking of swapping mine out like you guys did to get the longer CCFL cable (so I don't have to use a CCFL extension cable). Also, does anybody know if the connector NJYTouch uses to connect the LCD controller to the backlight inverter board is standard? I was considering replacing the CCFL with a LED backlight and wanted to know if a LED backlight inverter (is it still called an inverter if it's connected to LED?) would connect straight into it or if they use a different connector.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: Aerendraca on September 04, 2013, 07:04:49 AM
Ok, well based on the images you've supplied it looks like the controller hasn't been programmed correctly, i think there was a build a little while ago that reported the same sort of images. You might try downloading a freeware edid viewer to see what settings the controller has programmed, and compare the details with the spec of the screen you have.  Also if this is the issue NJYTouch seem to be pretty good and will probably be able to assist you further.

To be clear, the edid viewer is theory and has not been conclusively used to demonstrate a miss programmed controller yet, but i believe is should work.

As for the connectors, I'm afraid i cannot help since i have not used NJYTouch myself.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 04, 2013, 11:30:22 AM
Thanks for the suggestion on the EDID Viewer program. According to it, the manufacturer of the display is listed as "ROW" with a monitor name of "Crystal View" rather than it showing up as a LG monitor. I assume that this means the controller was programmed incorrectly? If so, that sucks because I was hoping to not have to wait on another slow boat from China to deliver a Programmer. I just looked on eBay and if I order one today, I might get the programmer some time between September 20th and October 8th.

Any idea whether this one would work with Windows 7 or if I'd have to use Windows XP to program it? I guess I could ask NJYTouch, but they haven't been that quick with responses in the past.

Also, a question for the guys that have reprogrammed controllers before (preferably those with experience on the LG LP150E5(A2)(K1)). Did the software that came with your controller have the LG panel listed or did you have to use something else? If so, what was it? I'm just thinking that if I have to reprogram the controller, I'd like to get it right the first time if possible.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: Aerendraca on September 04, 2013, 03:34:07 PM
The manufacturer name might not be too important as alot of screens can be so similaryly specified that chosing one manufacturer over another is arbitrary, for example on some computer monitors you can access a hidden service menu which allows you to change the TFT panel manufaturer, presumably because the controller was designed to be generic allowing the monitor manufacturer to pick a manufacturer for the actual TFT panel, but at the end of the day it's probably only to make sure the edid info matches up in the computers OS for continuity.

I would check refresh rates, resolution, timings - see if you can find the datasheet for you panel.

Not sure if the programmer will work in windows7 as I have never used one.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 06, 2013, 06:08:23 AM
So I've looked everywhere (not everywhere, but a lot of places) online and can't seem to find a datasheet for the LG LCD screen I'm using. I did find a couple of websites that claim to have it but they want to charge a ridiculous amount of money (one quoted as $800/year) to become a member and you can't view the datasheets unless you pay for a membership. So I honestly don't know what refresh rate and timings are supposed to be used for the screen (perhaps one of the guys from the K-Jintiq or Cintriq builds could chime in on what refresh rate and timings their functional LCD screens were set at?). I do know that the native resolution of 1400x1050 is set correctly in the LCD controller.

As a side note, does anyone have any idea whether you can set a default 180 degree rotation (since the screen needs to be upside-down to fit in the Intuos3 case) and refresh rate when programming the LCD controller? If I could do that, it would save me from having to find a Windows 7 compatible software program similar to SwitchResX for the Mac to set a custom refresh rate to cut jitter and allow me to connect the home brew Cintiq to any computer. If not, what are other people using to set refresh rates on their Windows based builds since my Radeon 7850 seems to only have 60Hz and 75Hz as defaults?

Of course just for grins I checked eBay and it looks like NJYTouch is selling the RM.5451 controllers again. So should I just order a programmer and try to re-program my B.NTA92C controller to work with the LP150E5(A2)(K1) screen or should I buy a RM.5451 controller and ask them to program it correctly this time? I know that in the K-Jintiq build they had to reprogram their RM.5451 to work correctly and after searching the site, it seems that others have had issues with NJYTouch not installing the right programming on their controllers. So if I get the RM.5451, should I also order a programmer as well? Not sure what my best next step should be in getting the LCD screen working right.

In other news, I've managed to get pretty far on the deconstruction part of the build and plan to start a build log shortly to show progress and give others that are considering this type of faux-Cintiq build another resource for info on how to go about putting one together. My solution for stripping the paint off the back of the Intuos 3 cover involved a copious amount of Goof Off "The Ultimate Remover" (not sure if it's a special type of Goof Off or not but it's what I had on hand), a fair bit of elbow grease, and a couple of clean rags. I still need to hit it with some Mothers Mag Polish (great for cleaning the yellow off headlights and polishing small scratches out of clear plastic). I also need to call the US Teko office to order some RF Shielded boxes for the enclosure and inverter. I find it funny that, if I lived in Europe, I could order them online. However, since I'm in the States (the home country for Teko), I have to call and place an order and hope they get it right.

Any continued help you guys could provide on getting my LCD screen working right would be greatly appreciated. I really want to get this thing working so I can finally stop using my old HP TC4400 for illustration work.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: Aerendraca on September 06, 2013, 10:08:40 AM
I think it might be time to email NJYTouch and ask them for some advise on this, I'm sure they'll be willing to help you out seeing as it would appear that the wrong screen has been programmed on it. From what I hear there is a lady (whos name I forget) is lovely, perhaps Bernard or someone can refresh my memory - It might even be on the LVDS supplier wiki.

As for rotating the screen 180degs, this one's easy in Win7, Just do [CTRL]+[ALT]+[Down Arrow]. To make it go back again do the same but with the [Up Arrow] instead. Job done!

Regarding buying a programmer vs new LVDS controller, I would still recommend contacting NJY to see if they can offer a replacement, discount or some assistance at the very least.

Apart from this set back it sounds like you're on track though. I'd love to see some pictures of your work so far.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 14, 2013, 11:16:11 AM
Well after talking back and forth with Sophia at NJYTouch, they're shipping me a R.RM5451 controller board via DHL that is supposedly going to be programmed correctly. They sold me just the board for $20 plus the $17 for DHL (no clue how Hieron got such a good deal from them when he had the programming mishap on the K-Jintiq build) and I'm really hoping that I'm not going to end up regretting not ordering a programmer. Fingers crossed it will work fantastically the first time it's hooked up.

On another note, I've been taking some pictures of the build so far and plan to start a build-log on here once the new controller shows up.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on September 14, 2013, 02:13:55 PM
Can you dump the EDID information here? If I understand correctly, your LCD brand and model is:  LG LP150E5(A2)(K1)  right?    Some folks found great sites to look for datasheets, maybe you'll get lucky.

When you bring the OSD menu on, does it have the same artifacts?  (This can help tell us where in the pipeline stuff fails).


Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 26, 2013, 02:46:36 AM
So I got the new controller about a week ago and the initial problem is completely gone. I don't know if it was a defective or improperly programmed B.NTA92C controller board that NJYTouch sent initially, but the new R.RM5451 board works like a charm. It still cost me $37 more than it should have, but at least the screen works now.

With that problem fixed, I was able to make a big jump in the build progress and have the entire project about 98% completed, but now I've got new problems to deal with. Running the monitor at the default 60hz causes a small amount of jitter. It's not an insane amount on most of the screen (though it is more pronounced by the backlight where it seems no amount of shielding will fix it), but enough to make it rather annoying. I've definitely been spoiled by the zero jitter I have with my tablet PC. So I downloaded Powerstrip to see if I could find the sweet spot refresh rate that will drop the jitter to almost non-existent or at least tolerable on all parts of the screen.

This is where the problem began. I think I can officially say that I HATE Powerstrip and would happily throat-punch the developer if I ever saw them on the street. For some reason, Powerstrip initially decided to drive my monitor at a little over 78hz as the default refresh rate rather than the 60hz or a little under it should have started with. So I fiddled with the settings to drop it down to around the 56hz-58hz range that seemed to work for others using this screen. Everything was going great as I was trying to dial it in to remove the jitter. Then Powerstrip decided to start pissing me off. The monitor worked fine at 58hz the first time it was there, but when I changed it to another frequency and then changed it back, it was suddenly "Out of Range" and caused my graphics driver to crash. After this, nearly every adjustment I made to the settings would cause my brand new ATI graphics card to crash. I even tried uninstalling and re-installing Powerstrip to no avail. The only way I could fix it was to yank the dvi cable out before it crashed the computer again, delete the pstrip.ini file and start over. Of course, now it's trying to drive my monitor at a little over 80.4hz as the default (even though the maximum is supposed to be 80hz). Please tell me there's another option for Windows users to change their refresh rates other than Powerstrip because the jitter I get at 60hz is still to much to be workable and everything I've tried in Powerstrip makes the problem worse rather than better?

The other problem I'm running into is cursor alignment. The Wacom utility for mapping an Intuos 3 outright sucks compared to the calibration utility for tablet PCs (and I'd assume Cintiqs). No matter what I do, I get a variable offset from where the pen is to the cursor depending on where on the screen I'm pointing. If I use the default "Full" option the cursor is consistently offset 1/4" below the pen on all of the screen. Setting it to "Portion" and trying their "calibration" tool, I can get it so that in some places it's lined up perfect, but in others it's either to the right or left by about 1/4" and up or down by about 1/8". Is there any way to trick the computer into thinking that the homebrew Cintiq is either a real Cintiq or a tablet PC monitor so that I can use the tablet PC calibration program that uses the four corner points instead of the top left and bottom right to align things?

At this point, dialing in the last 2% of this project through software and drivers is taking longer than it took to complete the other 98%. I could probably deal with the jitter I'm getting when running the monitor at 60hz refresh rate if the cursor was lined up correctly, but with both problems combined I'm seriously questioning my decision to build this thing when I could have bought a used Wacom 12WX off eBay or a new Yiynova DP10U for about the same amount of money.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on September 26, 2013, 02:45:25 PM
Some people don't realize the complexity associated with a build. Nobody (on this forum) said it was going to be easy, on the contrary. You seem very frustrated going through all that pain. I am sorry to hear that. Yes, getting an off-the-shelf product is a much better choice for someone that do not want to tinker -- especially if the price & specs is acceptable! The reason this whole forum started is because Wacom was about the only option at the time and the price, even for the smallest Cintiq, was just outrageously high.

Powerstrip can create a monitor .inf file that contains EDID-like information (including the refresh rates) to associate with the monitor.  If that got "installed" then I guess you need to find that information within windows (I think it is in the registry, not 100% sure) and reset (delete) it so it start auto-detecting it again and go back to the 60Hz default.  I do not understand Powerstrip and monitors enough to tell you where is that information and how to delete it. 

Have you tried booting Windows in "safe mode"?

Have you went to the "Device Manager", under "Monitors" and try to delete all monitors defined there?

Please don't throat-punch the Powerstrip developers (Entech), as it is about the only tool that offer this type of functionality on Windows. Yes, it is quite weird to deal with this software, it is quite "hacky" and very system-intrusive. You can easily get into a dead-end situation. I have no clue why it would suddenly driving at 80.4Hz.

Your "ATI card" is crashing?  You mean its driver, right? Not the actual "card", I assume. Getting a blue screen of death I suppose?

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on September 26, 2013, 05:00:54 PM
if you have issues seeing an image, you might think about setting up a remote desktop/vnc/"log me in" (would be the easiest) access so you can do stuff while it is connected but without the screen working.  Of course if your system completely hangs (because of your ATI card-related crash) then it does not help.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 26, 2013, 07:04:23 PM
Well it always seems to be the last 2% of any project that gives me the most difficulty (usually due to using software that I'm unfamiliar with and can't get to work correctly) and I generally don't mind tinkering. I've got a CNC Sherline mill that has been almost working for about 8 months now and a fully custom electric guitar I built from the ground up that has needed to be rewired again for nearly 2 years now. So I'm no stranger to tinkering and almost completing projects. I won't mention the motorized bicycle I've been working on for 4 years or how long the restoration of my 1971 Honda CB100 has taken so far. The DIY Cintiq is something I desperately want to add to the completed pile.

It just makes me kind of wish that SwitchResX was available for Windows users since it seems no one has had any issues using it to change their refresh rates in their Mac-based builds. Visually and functionally (physically speaking) the homebrew Cintiq I've put together is exactly what I envisioned when I started the build. The problem lies in getting it to work properly when connected to my computer.

I did find that I should be able to theoretically use the Tablet PC calibration utility if I set the homebrew Cintiq as my primary monitor. The problem I'm running into with that is getting it to work properly since the screen needs to be upside-down to fit in the Intuos case. When the utility starts it automatically "corrects" the rotation of the screen to standard landscape. This results in both the screen and digitizer being 180 degrees in opposition to each other and clicking on the upper left alignment crosshair (that is now in the lower right) does nothing nor does clicking on the opposite corner of the screen. So I'm not sure if it's going to be of any use to help get my cursor in alignment with the pen. Any suggestions on alternative calibration utilities?

As for Powerstrip, I've honestly considered learning how to write my own .inf file for the monitor rather than use it. I understand that it's a rather powerful piece of software that has a lot more functionality than just adjusting refresh rates and can easily "break" a computer as I've experienced with the constant crashing of my graphics driver. I just wish EnTech (or any other software company) made a streamlined version of the software for Windows users that only deals with refresh rates. Especially since they want to charge $30 for the program and it isn't even working correctly "out of the box". Each time that Powerstrip has crashed my driver, the only way I've been able to avoid a BSoD is to yank the DVI cable out of the monitor to disconnect it from the computer and delete the pstrip.ini file (that contains all the custom EDID information and .inf files) to start over. What is truly frustrating me to no end is that it is consistently trying to drive the monitor at higher and higher default refresh rates when it auto-detects my screen and I don't know why. Especially when the EDID information for the monitor states that the maximum vertical refresh rate is actually 75hz and the maximum pixel clock is 130Mhz, but Powerstrip wants to default to a little over 80.4hz vertical refresh rate (last time I tried it) with the pixel clock set at a little over 150Mhz. Who knows, the next time I use it, it might try to default to around 81hz. On top of this, any changes to the refresh rate (that it seems I can only do through creating a custom resolution) doesn't really do much to improve my jitter over what I'm getting at standard 60hz refresh rate and Powerstrip turned off. If anything it only makes my jitter worse or it stays the same.

I kind of wish I knew before I bought the ATI HD7850 card that only NVidia cards offer the ability to set custom refresh rates in their software. On the other hand, I've considered switching over to a LED backlight (even though it will cost me more money and I've already spent more than I wanted to on this build) to see if that will remove the jitter I'm experiencing and allow me to just run the monitor at standard 60hz. I seem to remember reading in another build on here (can't remember who's it was offhand) that switching their LCD screen (I think it was a LP150E05-A2K1 like I'm using) to LED backlight resulted in either zero or nearly zero jitter for them. I just don't know where the best place is to buy a 310mm strip of LED backlighting with a LED "inverter"/driver board that will work with the NJYTouch controllers and won't cost an arm and a leg. Any suggestions?

BTW, thank you Aerendraca and Bernard for the help and suggestions you've offered so far. I really appreciate it.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on September 27, 2013, 04:34:27 AM
LED:  try with the backlight unplugged to see if that is the cause of the problem. With a little luck, it will stay "on". (watch the led of your LVDS board to see if it behaves normally).  Prior to do that, attempt to "duplicate" your display to another monitor (so you can see the image somewhere!) -- beware to keep the resolution of the LCD intact else you will void your test.  First try to duplicate the display with the backlight ON to check that the problem is still there, then restart the whole thing but without the backlight connected.

My little finger told me you were a tinkerer in the heart.  Let's just say that you had a "momentary lapse of reason". :-) P.F.

MacOSX is a unix operating system and *by definition* it is much easier to deal with drivers (or anything -- internally everything is built "simpler" than Windows -- like everything) -- so it is no surprise that tweaks are easier to deal with.  To me, Entech (Powerstrip) is doing Windows Voodoo magic. They somehow managed to intimately know about lot of graphics cards -- it is no surprise that it causes crashes. Especially with newer graphics cards.

For the .inf:  You can just open the .inf that was generated and just tweak it yourself. 

btw, you can try to lower the refresh rate as well, even a small difference (like -0.5Hz) can do wonders.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on September 27, 2013, 06:59:24 PM
It wasn't so much a "momentary lapse of reason" as much as general frustration with the software. When using a program that has the power that Powerstrip has over your computer, you would think that using the same settings would cause the same results. What has caused me to be so flustered with Entech is that setting my refresh rate to 58hz would work the first time, but if I changed the refresh rate to around 61hz and then went back to 58hz (with all the other numbers the same as they were the first time I was at 58hz) my monitor was suddenly "Out of Range" and my graphics driver would crash. Even though everything was the same as it was when it worked the first time. What baffled me even more was setting the refresh rate to 60hz would work. However, if I dropped it to 56hz where the monitor would work and then increased it to around 59hz, it would suddenly put the monitor "Out of Range" and my graphics driver would crash. It seems that no matter what I do with Powerstrip, it's almost like the software has it out for me to prevent me from making any progress in reducing my jitter. I'll have to see if I can save off a custom inf file from Powerstrip and then just tweak the file from there instead of messing with Powerstrip any more.

I unplugged my backlight and set up the two monitors to duplicate my display and I'm still getting nearly the same amount of jitter when driving the screen at 60hz with Powerstrip off. So it appears that my problem isn't the backlight as much as the LCD screen itself. I still think the CCFL may be aiding in the jitter a little, just not as much as I initially thought. The strange part is that the worst of it is on the side of the screen where there isn't a backlight or any row/column drivers sticking out. This makes me think the problem must originate with the monitor refresh rate frequency (which I was hoping wouldn't be the case). I must admit that a part of me has considered buying a duplicate LCD screen off eBay to see if my jitter is really a result of variations in manufacturing of the screen itself. Especially since others have reported using the same model LCD and gotten almost zero jitter before they even did much shielding.

Of course, even though I'm almost finished with this build, a part of me has considered trying a new build with a 12.1" or 13.3" tablet PC LCD screen and digitizer (preferably one of the ones that support USB through I think it was pins 1,3,4, & 13) connected to an LCD controller board. From what I understand the tinkering needed with those has more to do with using a soldering iron and installing the correct Wacom driver(s) rather than chasing jitter bugs and cursor misalignment.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on September 27, 2013, 08:15:45 PM
yeah, using a tablet PC with its intended digitizer strapped to it augments the chances that you don't get any jitter.

BTW, in your build, you carefully grounded everything, right?  you want the energy to flow back to ground -- not go in mid-air and interfere with your pen!

Forgot to ask at the beginning, but if you turn OFF the LCD completely, (but leave it there) -- do you experience jitter?

In PowerStrip, did you play with the dialog that you can interactively change the settings live (you see the big 4 arrows buttons in there)?

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: Aerendraca on September 28, 2013, 09:04:36 AM
I seem to have missed the updates on this thread and it seems you're almost done but you have jitter issues, perhaps we could see some pictures of the setup?

As for powerstrip, it is a great tool with a poor gui and no instructions. The thing to remember with it is that it was never really designed for tft lcd panels but for crt screens. I've played about with this software a lot and my one piece of advise for preventing crashes is to turn off the live update feature, instead after each change click apply.

As it appears that it is the screen which is causing the jitter it is likely that it is the horizontal scan rate causing you problems. Are you using the standard 1400x1050 resolution of this screen or some other value?

since others have used the same panel I'm inclined to think that this might be more a problem with shielding. This is where photos are useful.

another note on powerstrip while i think of it, is that you could try reducing the back and front porch's instead of the refresh or scan rate directly, this will in turn reduce the total number of blanking pixels to be scanned and therefore bring down the scan and refresh rates. I would start with the vertical back porch as this directly affects the horizontal scan rate (horizontal scan rate = refresh rate x total vertical pixels). My tip here would be to drop it one at a time clicking apply after each change.

here's a brief explanation of what the porchs do; originally crt screens scanned a horizontal line at a time starting in the top left and working down. So that the picture appeared undistorted at the end of each horizontal scan the electron beam was shut off for a period of time to allow it to be positioned at the start of the next row and to give the voltages time to balance, this is dubbed blanking time and is a period of time introduced by adding virtual pixels to the beginning (front porch) and the end (back porch). Modern tft screens still have this legacy feature for use with older graphics drivers that insist upon using blanking, but in actuality this value doesn't need to be so large these days (but a small amount of blanking is still necessary).

Basically for a simpler life, make sure your shielding is good first, then mess about with powerstrip.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on October 02, 2013, 01:18:29 AM
As requested, here are some photos of the build so far to show how it's shielded and what it looks like. I did discover that the offset cursor was due to my own error when I cut the center section of the Intuos to mount the LCD screen. It turns out I didn't cut the hole high enough up and it wasn't allowing the LCD to sit in line with the Wacom sensor. Cutting the plastic back some more on top resulted in the cursor lining up as close as it can be when parallax is considered.
The screen as it currently looks "assembled" on a modified stand from an old HP 1530 monitor that allows 180 degree rotation as well as tilt.
The screen sitting on the tablet. Behind the Rust-oleum orange painter's tape is a layer of copper shielding tape that wraps around the perimeter of the screen and is linked via a wire to the ground it to the back control enclosure.
I also added a little bit of copper tape over the screws that mount the control enclosure to the Intuos and covered them with painter's tape to prevent electrical connection with the Wacom shield.
Screen assembly with cut out center section put in place. I'm still not sure if the double-sided foam tape I bought is going to be too thick or not to allow a tight attachment of the top cover.
The back Hammond control enclosure with boards in place. The entire case is lined in copper shielding tape with additional shielding tape over a layer of painter's tape around the inverter. Painter's tape was also used to separate the LCD controller board and keypad PCBs from the contacting the bottom of the case. I also ran a ground wire between the ground screw for the inverter and the ground point on the LCD controller. The back of the Intuos was painted black to "match" the black powder-coated Hammond enclosure. The best part about this case is that, aside from about 1" of the LCD controller cable, everything is contained within either it or the Intuos itself
A shot of my button extensions for the keypad. made using some 6-32 screws, no. 6 washers, shortened compression springs and nickel plated acorn nuts. You can also see in the previous photo where I had to add a couple layers of foam tape to prevent the PCB from rotating when the buttons are pressed.
A final "beauty shot" of the screen turned on. This was taken before I modified the center section to slide the LCD screen up more. I've got a little touch up work to do to my paint job since there's now about a 3/16" space at the bottom of the screen that the paint isn't covering and it's allowing light bleed through.

I'm still at a complete loss on my jitter issues. I've literally shielded everything that I can think of to shield, but I'm still getting some amount of jitter at any refresh rate I try in Powerstrip. Using either 56hz or 58hz seem to result in the least amount of jitter in the center of the screen, but it's still noticeably present along the edges of the screen. I've also noticed that my jitter is almost completely unaffected by whether the metal trim ring around the LCD is attached or not, which really makes me think my problem may be the screen itself (not the model of screen but the physical screen I have in my possession). I'm also curious as to how much of the back of the CCFL shield had to be cut off in the K-Jintiq build (and other similar builds) since I cut mine down quite a bit, but I've got roughly 1/4" at the top of my screen where the shield is that the pen won't read through. Maybe I need to cut it down even further.

I'm still considering putting together a second build using a screen and digitizer from a tablet PC as this build is totally unusable in it's current jittery state. I know the HP TX2000 screens work and the digitizer is USB, but the poor viewing angles and color of the TN LCD has me concerned (something I hate about my TC4400 and I've heard is worse with the addition of the touchpanel). I've looked at possibly getting the LCD screen assembly from a Lenovo X200 or X201 since LED backlit IPS screens are available for them (though they may use a 20-pin connector instead of 30-pin), but I don't know if the digitizer is UART or USB. Another option I considered was the screen and digitizer from a Fujitsu T5010 or T2010, but I seem to remember reading that most of the digitizers Fujitsu uses are UART. The screen/digitizer assembly from a T2010 was suggested in a tablet PC forum to replace the screen and digitizer for a HP TM2, but they weren't sure if the connections were the same for the 12W03AS-01X digitizer in the Fujitsu. I guess that at least, as of 2010 when the forum topic was started, the Hydis HV121WX6 screen from the T2010 was one of the best screens available. Any idea whether that digitizer is UART or USB? Ideally if I went this route, I'd want to use both the LCD and digitizer from the same tablet PC as it would minimize the possibility of any jitter occurring and right now I can pick up a complete and working Fujitsu T2010 for about $80 used or buy a new replacement LCD screen assembly for a HP TX2000 for about $90. Decisions, decisions.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on October 02, 2013, 02:06:35 AM
Did you say that with the LCD turned OFF, you still have jitter issue?

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on October 02, 2013, 03:58:03 AM
With the LCD completely OFF, I don't get jitter. In fact, the only way I don't have jitter is if the LCD screen is completely off. If the screen is on but the backlight is disconnected, I still get jitter. Really, with the shielding I've got in place, the backlight being on or off (surprisingly) doesn't cause a difference in the amount of jitter. It seems that my jitter is actually being caused by the LCD screen itself (primarily on the 3 sides that don't have the backlight). Which has led me to wonder if it's the physical screen I have that is causing the problem. However, I'm not sure if I want to dump the money into buying another LP150E05-A2K1 LCD screen right now in the hope that it will magically work. So right now, it's a 5-10 lb paper weight that can be used as either a Wacom tablet OR a 1400x1050 IPS monitor. Not both at the same time.

Hence why I was considering the tablet PC screen route so that I can at least get something useable while I try to decide whether to mess with this thing any more or not. My profession is largely based on my ability to create illustrations and my TC4400 is really showing its age. So I need something with zero jitter (or at least nearly zero) to be a viable replacement and I can't really justify the expense of an actual Cintiq (nor am I really happy with the Wacom's use of TN panels in most of their models of Cintiq). Of course I also don't want to start a tablet PC build unless I can get a digitizer that is USB based as I'd prefer to not have to mess with trying to get a Teensy to work and then get the drivers to recognize it.

From everything I've been reading about the Fujitsu T2010 or it's replacement the T2020 (with it's use of a WLED backlight IPS screen), it has the possibility of being the perfect donor. But only if the digitizer is USB and I can't find any information about the SU5E-12W03AS-01X anywhere online. So I'm hesitant to spend the $80+ on buying a T2010 and hoping it has a usable digitizer. Another option is the screen assembly from a Fujitsu T730. It uses the same WLED IPS screen as the T2010 and T2020, but uses a different digitizer (SU5E-12W28AS-01X). From the digitizers I've seen, most T730s have a date code from 2011 vs. the 2007/08 of the T2010 and T2020 digitizers. Not sure if that might make a difference. I know the other piece of the puzzle is finding out if NJYTouch sells a LCD controller that will work with the 1280x800 WLED Hydis HV121WX6 screens, but China is celebrating "National Day" this week and NJYTouch is closed until Monday.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on October 02, 2013, 07:55:53 AM
I wish I had my scope hooked to your LCD just to check on the generated frequencies. If **really** you were able to change them (after all, you got into _lots_ of trouble trying to do that). Your build is really a great and promising one.  I understand that time is of essence and you need to earn money!

You do not have access (through a friend) to any other PC / Mac or (inexpensive/old) graphics card that you could try (without spending a dime of course).

In which area of the world do you live again?

Tablet PC: yeah -- no safe bet formula there either. The safest is to buy an off-the-shelf product, not to build one with spare parts!

You can't use the Wacom tablet alone and your old device for the steps that really requires you to draw on the screen?

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on October 02, 2013, 07:06:23 PM
I live in the Rust Belt of 'Murrica (Ohio) where funnily enough there are actually people that pronounce America that way. The only good part about the area I'm in is close proximity to Fastenal, Parts Express, a few Surplus Electronics stores, Alro Steel (where I can buy aluminum and plastic sheet and plate by the pound), and a bunch of out of work machinists that will generally work for cheap (and usually mispronounce the name of the country).

I've actually been putting off getting more design work while I fiddle with this project. So I'm technically losing money every day it isn't working (the benefit and curse of working as a freelancer). I just really want to retire my old tablet PC since it can't run any Adobe software newer than CS5 and it bogs down on large Photoshop files. I've lost out on movie poster jobs in the past because I knew my TC4400 would have a heart attack trying to create a 300 dpi one-sheet poster. I've also been using a tablet PC for about 7 years now and trying to use a regular Wacom tablet where I'm not looking at my hand and the screen at the same time is far too awkward to be useful (the main reason I got a tablet PC in the first place back in 2006).

Somewhere I've got a copy of OSX (I think Lion) that I picked up to build a Hackintosh once. So I've considered installing it on an extra hard drive I've got sitting around to see if I can eliminate the jitter with SwitchResX. I've also got a workstation PC with a NVidia Quadro FX4800 that I use for Solidworks and video editing work that I could try hooking the screen up to and test it there. I almost got an oscilloscope as well (when a friend of mine was trying to get rid of 5-6 extra scopes he had a few years ago), but I couldn't figure out at the time what I'd need one for (hindsight is 20/20). If I can find a setting on either SwitchResX or in NVidia's software that eliminates the jitter, I can try plugging those numbers into Powerstrip and see if it works. I really just want to have a back-up plan in case I still can't eliminate the jitters.

I've only got about $200 more that I can afford to spend right now. Thus a used Cintiq or Chinese clone is out of the question. I could possibly get a Yiynova DP10 for about $200 but my Galaxy Note 10.1 has about the same screen size and it's too small for anything but sketching. So I want to at least maintain the 12.1" screen size (even if it is widescreen). Hence the consideration of putting together another monitor using parts from a newer Fujitsu, Lenovo, or HP tablet PC. I know it's not as foolproof as an off-the-shelf product, but people like Trashie have proved it's possible (at least with the TX2000). It's a shame that the Toshiba Tecra M4 and M7 use serial digitizers, since a 14.1" screen at 1400x1050 or 1440x900 would be great. I heard that the HP TX2000 and TM2 both have the digitizer physically integrated with the LCD screen because of the touchscreen part. Is there any truth to this? The reason I'm wondering is I'm seriously considering picking up a 12.1" Fujitsu (at least the LCD screen assembly) and I'm curious if I could swap a TX2000 or TM2 USB digitizer if it turns out that the Fujitsu is serial.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on October 02, 2013, 07:58:32 PM
Still, 12 inch is not that big nowadays for doing 300dpi posters!  (especially the widescreen formats)

Hackintosh: lots of fiddling ahead, but it could work indeed. At least enough to see if you have a chance with just playing with frequencies. Another option is to call ATI support and try to get down to a knowledgeable person that might know enough to fiddle with the software to tweak the frequencies.  Some hard-core gaming enthusiasts love to tweak the output frequencies so this is no big surprise.

Again, you really have no Mac or PC friends that would be willing to spend a whole evening to run switchResX / PowerStrip to try it (you would bring your toy there).   I mean, if you can prove it works, then you know that you have a viable solution. Enough to justify putting a bit of money in a solution to have a controllable (good enough) NVidia. (do you really need to get the hottest 3D game graphic card in town?)

Again, you could just buy a Nvidia card in a shop where they accept a 10-day refunds.  Enough time to try it out.  In any case you can return it.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on October 02, 2013, 08:58:44 PM
I know 12 inch isn't that big nowadays (forgive my desire to add a "That's what she said" comment). That's why my secondary monitor is a 32" screen for checking details.

I was concerned that the Hackintosh route may be more trouble than it's worth just to test refresh rates. The downside would be if I could get it to work with no jitter in OSX but not in Windows since all my design software is Windows based rather than Mac. I did find a couple of pieces of software that a guy developed to get 120hz refresh rates with an ATI card. Though I don't know if it will work for lower than 60hz refresh rates or not. I still need to download them and try them out to see if it will help or not.
AMD/ATI Pixel Clock Patcher (removes the 330mhz pixel clock limit for dual link DVI, but I'm not sure if it's needed with the lower pixel clock that the homebrew Cintiqs need) -
Custom Resolution Utility (supposed to allow custom resolutions to be defined by creating EDID overrides directly in the registry without having to deal with inf files and could be useful for bypassing the need to use Powerstrip) -

All my friends that own Macs live in other states (or they own Macbooks and don't know how to use them) and most that own PCs only use graphics cards good enough to connect a monitor to their computer (i.e. not really computer savvy). In fact, thinking about it, most people I know only know how to use their computers for playing Facebook games and updating their Twitter feeds. So all of the testing will have to be done by me unfortunately. The worst part about my decision to buy the HD7850 graphics card (which I just bought about 2 months ago and aside from the ATI refresh rate thing is a fantastic card) is that I was initially trying to decide between it and a NVidia GTX 650ti Boost, but opted for the ATI card because it had better benchmarks (gaming and otherwise). I was totally unaware of the ability to adjust refresh rates with NVidia cards at the time and at this point would rather not have to buy another graphics card.

I did find that the Asus R1F used a variant (01A instead of 03A) of the 13.3" digitizers that a guy on eBay is selling in batches of 35 or 50. I also found a guy that is selling the entire LCD assembly from a R1F for less than $40 (just waiting on confirmation that it isn't damaged) and NJYTouch sells a 20-pin LVDS cable for use with their controller boards that mentions the LCD panel from the R1F. Which leads me to assume that they sell a controller for it as well (though I still need to contact them to find out for sure). So it's possible that I could put together a 13.3" 1280x800 build for around $100 (which is still better than the 12.1" 1024x768 TC4400 I'm currently using).

So I'm going to fiddle with the software I found to see if it works, but I'll probably go ahead and order the R1F screen assembly and one of the 5v to 3.3v step-down voltage regulators that you linked to from the SU-13W02E-03A thread in case I need to start working on a backup plan. Plus, who knows? Maybe I'll end up finding another cheap option for building a homebrew Cintiq in the process.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on October 02, 2013, 09:17:16 PM
I don't mean to double-post, but I think I may have made an exciting discovery. I found a TabletPC Forum thread from 2008 where guys were complaining about not being able to run the Wacom drivers for Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn on their Asus R1F computers because the drivers only worked with serial Wacom digitizers at the time. Plus there was a guy that mentioned, "...yes the drivers for Asus R1F and other tablet pcs that use internal usb HID will be supported along with penabled drivers in June...". So I think it's safe to assume that the R1F has a USB digitizer and, according to reviews it got when it came out, has a screen (though not IPS) that has pretty good viewing angles and color. Looks like I've found a donor for my backup plan.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on October 03, 2013, 02:33:31 AM
OOooh! that Custom Resolution by ToastyX seem good in the sense that you can tweak all the parameters and it even the do math to fit one of the three frequencies of your choice (pixel clock, horizontal frequency or refresh rate).   The downside is it does not seem to have a way to "try it live" (which was something great with PowerStrip -- when it works of course).  Finding the good frequency is a total trial and error thing and there is a vast choice. So every split second counts when trying one set of numbers.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: TheIdeaCan on October 03, 2013, 08:19:33 AM
I thought you might like the Custom Resolution Utility. It may be good to let others know about it as an option if they're having the same troubles I've had with Powerstrip (plus it's free). I haven't messed with it much yet because of the need to restart the computer each time you make a change, but I figure I've got some time to play with it while I wait for parts to my new build to show up.

I went ahead and bought an Asus R1F screen assembly off eBay to try a tablet pc based build and placed an order for a 3.3V step-down voltage regulator (for a total cost so far of about $39). I'm also thinking of ordering a female USB port from Mouser (to allow me to use a standard USB cable to connect the tablet screen to my computer) when I order the enclosure for the extra electronics. Then it will just require waiting on NJYTouch to get back in the office so I can order a LCD controller. Other things I'm considering include hacking together a small USB based programmable keyboard to attach to the back of the screen to give me some hot key functionality and possibly tearing apart a USB hub to allow me to just run one USB cable from the screen assembly to the computer (though I'm unsure if additional power would be needed to run both the digitizer and a USB keyboard). I'm also curious whether I'll be able to hook up the hot keys from the R1F screen for CTRL+ALT+DEL and Escape or if they'll just be useless buttons. Once I start getting the parts in, I'll start up a build thread for it.

Title: Re: Something isn't right with my LCD screen
Post by: bernard on October 04, 2013, 03:12:33 PM
USB hub: no need for extra power to power the digitizer and a (standard) keyboard.