Bongofish

Screen Tablet malarky => Heyaaaalpppp => : jedikalimero August 04, 2017, 07:55:07 PM



: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero August 04, 2017, 07:55:07 PM
I have a second generation Cintiq 21UX DTK-2100 and recently in a very unfortunate accident it fell to the floor being hit in the lower left corner. Yhe plastic case in that corner broke in pieces but the LCD is still intact and working correctly. The Wacom driver still detects the Cintiq and all the ExpressKeys and ExpressSliders work but it doesn't react at all when I touch the screen with the stylus. (I have tried with several styluses, Grip Pen, Airbrush, Art Pen, Grip Pen Pro, Classic Pen but no way. All of them working in Intuos Pro, 5 and 4, of course).

So I think the problem is located at the tablet driver board (identified as PWB-B034D) that is still partially working since the device itself is detected and all the keys and sliders work. Or either in the sheet under the LCD that makes the EM matrix, but this is less likely since it is just a sheet of printed circuit matrix without any components on it.

I guess Wacom would charge me more than the cost of a fully working second hand 21UX for the motherboard so any suggestions?
The Motherboard has LOTS of test points but I don't know how to test it since I haven't found any information about it.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: XDjackieXD August 05, 2017, 08:36:50 PM
could you take some high-res photos of the insides? that would make debugging a bit easier.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: Ertew August 05, 2017, 11:37:20 PM
I have two Tablet-PC screens.
T5010 have typical construction: single PCB for Wacom chips and flat-flex circuit for antennas.
ST5111 have two solid boards, one with chips, second with antennas. Both boards are connected via board to board connector.
If You have second option, then connector may just need to reconnect and that's all. If connector wasn't the problem I guess broken quartz oscillator (hard to replace in home, easy for electronic service). If still nothing then repair of broken digitizer may be impossible or even more expensive than new digitizer.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: XDjackieXD August 06, 2017, 12:09:47 PM
well replacing an oscillator isn't hard but remotely diagnosing a defective oscillator is...


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: Ertew August 06, 2017, 02:30:30 PM
Quartz oscillator is the most fragile component of most electronic boards (except displays and connectors).
Broken solder joints or traces on PCB may be unrepairable. Especially when board is attached to heat sensitive flex circuit (antennas).


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: XDjackieXD August 07, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Oh oscillators are not *that* fragile. I abused some of them quite a bit but they are fragile compared to most other components on a board ^^


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: Pesho August 08, 2017, 04:02:05 PM
Those things are solid-state components, i doubt it's that. AFAIK the buttons and sliders are separate boards that connect to a board that's located on the left side. Better check it for loose connections and broken off SMD components. My bet is that there's no connection between that board and the actual digitizer grid that's located behind the screen.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: Ertew August 08, 2017, 04:41:06 PM
Yeah. All we can do at this moment is wait for more info or photos and keep guessing :)

XDjackieXD: You have different experience than me. Can You wrote Your guesses what may be wrong?


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: XDjackieXD August 09, 2017, 03:00:39 PM
XDjackieXD: You have different experience than me. Can You wrote Your guesses what may be wrong?
Well I don't know the wacom boards but usually board to board connectors and cold solder joints are what fail after a drop (at least that's my experience with stuff like audio mixers, laptops and many other things I repaired so far)


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero August 16, 2017, 07:03:19 PM
Hello again.
Here are the pictures. I took several more pictures than needed just in case they help to somebody else needing to disassemble a DTK-2100.

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

[attachment=4]

[attachment=5]

[attachment=6]

[attachment=7]

[attachment=8]

I have checked the connection between the Cintiq motherboard and the Display controller, not only pint to pin but following the tracks to the first component connected to each pin and it is OK, so the problem MUST be located in the Cintiq motherboard or the sensor matrix.

But in case the problem was in the sensor matrix, I guess I would get vertical or horizontal areas in the screen where the pen is not detected but not a complete lack of response everywhere.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero August 16, 2017, 08:48:48 PM
Here are a couple of HI RES pictures I took of the motherboard using a scanner:


(http://i.imgur.com/2Xd3krjm.jpg) (http://imgur.com/2Xd3krj)

(http://i.imgur.com/xTLuVbDm.jpg) (http://imgur.com/xTLuVbD)



: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: Ertew August 16, 2017, 10:39:51 PM
As I see, digitizer board have two main chips and strange connector to LCD board.
First chip, lets say USB chip, working fully or partially. USB and buttons working. Communication with second chip may be broken.
Second chip, let say Digitizer chip, may be broken or waiting for signal from display controller.

IMHO both boards may need repair.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero August 17, 2017, 02:50:50 AM
As I see, digitizer board have two main chips and strange connector to LCD board.
First chip, lets say USB chip, working fully or partially. USB and buttons working. Communication with second chip may be broken.
Second chip, let say Digitizer chip, may be broken or waiting for signal from display controller.

IMHO both boards may need repair.

U5 is M16C R5F36CAMNFB and is the chip connected directly to the USB D- and D+ signals (through resistors). It is a microcomputer with its own memory, DMA, etc commonly used in USB devices.
U6 is the Wacom chip W4027F. This is the chip that locates the stylus and processes the signals from it. It is also present in the Intuos tablets.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: Ertew August 25, 2017, 03:45:40 PM
As I wrote on Drewid's topic:
One more thing. This digitizer contains two boards and flat flex to connect them.
You show active board (lot of chips) but not passive board (antennas). Flat cables shouldn't cause problems, but connectors at both ends may.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero September 21, 2017, 11:45:49 PM
As I wrote on Drewid's topic:
One more thing. This digitizer contains two boards and flat flex to connect them.
You show active board (lot of chips) but not passive board (antennas). Flat cables shouldn't cause problems, but connectors at both ends may.

I'm not sure but in case there was any problem with the connectors for the sensor array, I think the detection of the pen would be erratic, being detected in some areas but not in others. But in my case, the pen is not detected anywhere.


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero September 27, 2017, 01:50:42 AM
UPDATE:

I went the easy way and bought in ebay the inners of another Cintiq. It was the LCD and sensor cage with the 3 motherboards on it, so it was very simple to remove my faulty motherboard and replace it with the working one. Cintiq repaired except for one terrible mistake. While I was cleaning the glass of the front case in order to put the LCD in place again, I BROKE IT!!!

I was not doing any substantial pressure but it was enough to crack the glass. This glass is a 1mm thick glass with an anti-glare filter glued at the back. The filter is not at the front of the glass where you put the stylus but at the back, between the LCD screen and the glass. I think this filter also acted as a reinforcement of the glass, avoiding it to break when pressed from the outside, but when pressed from the inside (that's what I did) it simply cracked.

So now I have a working Cintiq but with a broken glass.  :'(

So what I want to ask you is what would you do?

I was thinking about replacing the glass with an acrylic sheet, more flexible but more prone to scratches, but I could also buy a screen protector to cover it and protect if from scratches, but I can't find a 1 mm sheet of 39 x 48.3 cm. The same goes for the plastic used to frame water paint pictures (2 mm and expensive) or glass (3 mm)





: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: DaBotz September 27, 2017, 12:12:11 PM
You can try to see if there is polycarbonate available in your area, or going for some 2 mm thick glass.

If you opt for glass, you'll have to be careful because usually, in that thickness you can't usually find it tempered... at the appearance of any crack whatsoever, you'll have to replace it, as cracks -no matter how small on a border - always expand in unpredictable ways, in non-tempered glass.

The polycarbonate can be much more expensive than glass (by a factor 15 at least, as it costs more than acrylic - and that already costs almost ten times glass) , but it can also be much clearer and almost as resistant.  Scratch resistance would also be good, much better than acrylic, though adding a screen-protector would still be a good idea, as it would also give you some texture.

Personally I love to draw on glass - I used to place a glass plate even over my first tablet, a Graphire 4"x5" - but that is a perversion of mines.  


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero October 24, 2017, 03:40:45 AM
I have the glass to replace the one I broke. It is 2mm matt glass. So to hide the metal edges of the LCD and double-sided tape, I tried to paint the black border as in the original glass, but things did not work as I thought. I spray painted it on the inside but the paint does not stick well to the glass and it "peels". Obviously, if I stick this to the double-sided tape, what will stick is not the glass but the paint that will come off and the glass will be loose.
The original glass was painted black at the edge but this paint work does not peel off. You'd have to scratch it with a cutter for it to come out and still it's fucking hard. The one I sprayed comes out just by thumb rubbing it.
Anybody knows of another technique that I could try?
 I made the Wacom logo hand painted with a silver Sharpie in the inside side and then sprayed the black paint
Over it. It looks so great it is a pity all this effort is worthless


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: DaBotz October 24, 2017, 11:24:02 AM
Glass is a slippery material.

Unless you get it etched in the areas you need to paint, or have a specific paint, the tendency to peel off is to be expected. 

(By the way, for both things, the easiest way to do it is going to a local glass shop and ask them - they likely have the right paint and can even etch the borders to make it stick better, if necessary... )
 


: Re: dropped 21UX 2nd gen not responding to stylus.
: jedikalimero October 24, 2017, 09:26:10 PM
Unless you get it etched in the areas you need to paint, or have a specific paint, the tendency to peel off is to be expected. 

Yes, but the original glass had the border painted in black and it doesn't peels off at all. As I said, you need to scratch hard with an exacto knife or similar to remove it and even so, it is not easy to remove.


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