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Author Topic: Intuos3 A5 wide build... strange ratio. How would you proceed ?  (Read 34275 times)
GwenLP
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2011, 06:22:43 PM »

OK…
 I sent an e-mail with some references of LED LCDs and their specsheets. That is what i got in return:

Quote
After checking the datasheet, I’m sorry to say that at present we may can’t help with it because we don’t have such a LCD panel for testing. So it is hard to say.
 
Best regards,

Disappointing…
Man, there HAS to be a way to drive these LED LCDs…
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bernard
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2011, 11:42:58 PM »

I believe they have all the knowledge and ability to do it -- but since they do not have the device in their hands they cannot certify that it will work (read: it will not work when shipped to you). Problem with LEDs is that there is no real standard for LEDs backlight like there are for CCFLs -- at least not yet.

I would assume as there is more and more LED-based panels, it will standardize over time.

You could ask them *which* LED-based LCD Panels they can drive [that would fit your needs].

There is always a way to drive those leds:  the DIY way - roll-you-own circuit -- these are just LEDs afterall!!

Most LVDS controller have a 12V DC output dedicated to drive the backlight (not sure how much mAmps but probably well enough to drive LEDs). So the idea here would be to take that 12v DC output and transform it to whatever the specification says and voilà.  OK easier said than done.  Can you solder?  Maybe I should start a DIY general-purpose-LED-driving-for-LCD-Panels project..?

Can you forward us the LED LCDs specs you are talking about?  Let me have a look.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 11:45:59 PM by bernard » Logged
GwenLP
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« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2011, 12:39:00 PM »

Are you always so optimistic Bernard ?  Wink

Quote
I would assume as there is more and more LED-based panels, it will standardize over time.
Yes, it is what I was hoping as well. After all it's been 14 months since I disovered this forum. I thought things were moving quicker than that towards leds. Now all high-end TVs and Monitors are LED backlit.

Here are the 2 LED LCDs specs I've sent them:
http://glp.lescigales.org/divers/LP116WH2-TLC1.pdf
http://glp.lescigales.org/divers/B116XW02_V0.pdf

Quote
Most LVDS controller have a 12V DC output dedicated to drive the backlight (not sure how much mAmps but probably well enough to drive LEDs). So the idea here would be to take that 12v DC output and transform it to whatever the specification says and voilà.
Mmhh That's definitely a good thing.
I have some electronics background: not very solid but I have made some small things in the past (self-designed intercom-thing between my workshop and home). As for soldering, it's ok, I can, but my iron is crap…

Have you looked at the link in my 28th of february post ? They seem to have all sorts of LEDs drivers: I guess there is a way to connect one to a standard controller in lieu of the CCFL inverter.
I'd love to be able to play with luminosity via the LVDS controller's interface.

I think LEDs draw about 15-25mA. Maybe High-bright LEDs are different ? I am not sure if 12V is OK or not…
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 01:18:45 PM by GwenLP » Logged
bernard
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« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2011, 12:00:52 AM »

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Are you always so optimistic Bernard ?  Wink

Smiley We can say that.

Quote
Have you looked at the link in my 28th of february post ?
  That page was about led rails -- but now I see that this same site also sells stand-alone led drivers for various panels -- I see they sell overstock items -- but can you actually order 1 led-driver unit - and for how much??

I was reading the first PDF (LG LP116WH2) you gave out and I think it has the following LED spec:

It has 3 "strings" of LEDs each requiring anything between 5V to 12V DC input at 22mA (so a total 66mA if wired together).  *** elsewhere it talks about 32Volts -- not sure which one to trust!!?
The brightness is controlled by a PWM input (frequency can be anywhere from 1Khz to 10Khz) and the duty cycle controls the brightness -- 12.5% lowest brightness, 100% full brightness (if you apply a steady signal like connecting the pin to a signal VCC (3.3v) that is equivalent to a 100% duty cycle).  I do not know if LCD controllers all have the brightness PWM signal -- but this is a pretty standard way to control the brightness even for a CCFL driver so there is a good chance there.
Somewhere it says the LED should be powered only after the LCD matrix is up and running (200ms after to be precise). -- but I suspect it will work fine anyway -- it should be to avoid visual glitches on power up I assume.
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bernard
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« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2011, 12:19:10 AM »

I checked the second datasheet (B116XW02_V0) and this one has no contradictory specs:

* LED-backlight.png (36.54 KB. 775x447 - viewed 313 times.)


Input voltage 12v (but works from 6v to 21v).
Same type of PWM stuff for the brightness at 1kHz (but can work up to 10kHz).
Signal voltage can work off 3.3v and 5v boards (which is cool) - (LED enable pin and PWM).

Elsewhere it mentions the backlight consumes 2.76 Watt at 12v -- that sounds like 230mA to me. (2.76W/12V = 0.23A)

You can't get simpler I think -- these are perfect specs.

There is a good chance a LVDS driver monitor kit meant to work with an external CCFL inverter (non-integrated) could directly drive this backlight.

For boards that have an integrated inverter, I would try to disable the inverter circuitry to save on power and tap on the required signals to drive the backlight.  Sounds like fun! hehe Smiley

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Kareltje
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« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2011, 04:40:38 PM »

I had a small look into the controllers of nyjtouch.

Since I have a programmer or them this is relatively easy for me.
I think you can just drive it with their programmer and then you would need to add some PWM circuit for the leds.
Wouldn't  work out of the box but it is certainly possible



Code:
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They support a lot of screens with the same resolution as yours, I'm  almost certain that at least one of them would work for you.
You would still need to fabricate something for the backlight though.

Hope this helps a bit
Karel

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bernard
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« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2011, 12:56:10 AM »

Do these boards have the CCFL inverter shipped on a separate PCB?  How do you know there is no PWM?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:03:30 AM by bernard » Logged
Kareltje
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« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2011, 11:15:09 AM »

Do these boards have the CCFL inverter shipped on a separate PCB?  How do you know there is no PWM?

Yes the boards come with a separate CCFL inverter board. Of course it is possible to do PWM with the controller itself.
The annoying thing is that without a compiler / assembler and some decent manual / datasheet it is near impossible to do it.
The "easiest" way would be to use to controller to driver the LVDS  and clock signals and have a small AVR or PIC do the PWM.

Unless you would be able to find a matching LED driver board that could connect to the NYJTOUCH controller board....

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bernard
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« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2011, 12:11:06 PM »

well...  I am not talking about re-compiling a new firmware.  Tongue What I am getting at is that since a PWM is already a popular standard to control the brightness through CCFL inverter boards -- maybe the PWM signal is already present (and re-usable for the LED driver board)?  What connections do you have going into that board?  Any markings on any of the PCBs or manuals?

What I am discovering here is that more and more LED-based LCD Panels already includes a LED driver board. This is not just the "bare LEDs" but some sort of integrated "driver". But, for it to work, you still have to feed the bare minimum: 1) some power, 2) the "Enable" signal and 3) that famous "PWM-based brightness". All standard stuff that you already find on quite a few CCFL inverter boards. Hopefully on the NYJTouch ones too, hence my question. Smiley
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GwenLP
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« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2011, 12:37:24 PM »

Seems like we've got a nice momentum going on here !
Thanks for your input !

Just to make things clear: I suppose PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation ?
But can you tell me what AVR or PIC mean ?

Quote
Unless you would be able to find a matching LED driver board that could connect to the NYJTOUCH controller board....
I have asked ergpower.com if they think their LED drivers could be compatible with NJY touch LVDS drivers. That would facilitate things quite a lot.

Quote
I'm  almost certain that at least one of them would work for you.
So am I: I suspect that the LCD matrix is more or less the same: only the backlight is modified for LEDs.

Kareltje: can you tell me what model of LVDS controller you'vr got from NYJTouch ?
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bernard
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« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2011, 12:56:49 PM »

yes PWM is for Pulse Width Modulation -- a somewhat simple signal that simply goes ON and OFF and ON and OFF... etc. Going ON then OFF is 1 cycle. And the time spent ON (in % of the cycle) is called the "duty cycle".  So 50% duty cycle would mean 50% of the time ON and 50% of the time OFF.  100% means always ON (0% time spent OFF).  The time it take to do one cycle is called the period (in seconds) and the inverse of the period is the frequency (in Hertz) (freq = 1/period).

A PIC or AVR are two very popular 'microcontroller' -- a low-cost system-on-a-chip -- those are often used in DIY projects. But you still have to build the PCB to put the chip on and all the stuff around it to support it. There are already-made boards but rarely under 30$US. And you most likely still have to solder a few things and program it yourself.  I am currently working on a project for bongofish using an inexpensive AVR-based board (called the Teensy) which is 18$US+5$ shipping.  I know this can very easily generate any PWM you like. The issue here  is not generating the PWM, but how to "control the brightness" -- It would not be connected to the monitor kit -- so it won't work with the monitor kit OSD (on-screen-display menu) or maybe even the computer itself.  I guess that with a separate board like this you would install two "buttons" (+) and (-) to control the brightness "separately". That would work (I can help doing the software for a Teensy since I have a few of those here).
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Kareltje
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« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2011, 01:07:54 PM »

I have a 5451 controller from them.
I would have to reverse engineer some of the PCB and figure out what exactly is driving the CCFL and how it works.

I think the controller itself is a RTD2120L which does have two dedicated PWM channels. I'll try and figure out how it works but don't really have time so don't expect me to come back with info before the weekend on this.


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GwenLP
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« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2011, 01:25:20 PM »

@ Bernard: controlling the brightness without or within the OSD isn't important at all I think ! In fact, 2 little buttons somewhere on the wacom (alongside a ON/OFF switch for the monitor) would be perfect.
Build the PCB is fine: I did it once (with that marker and FeCl3) and loved it !

@ Kareltje: haha, even if you came back with the info just before the summer it would be fine : this is spare time !

So, it seems that :
  • a NYJTouch controller should be OK to drive the signal of the LED matrix
  • there is a possibility that these drivers can control a LED driver like those from ERGpower
  • if the last isn't true, it is fairly easy to build an external PWM driver

I'll have a look at this Teensy thingy !
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bernard
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« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2011, 03:12:16 PM »

One piece of advice here: Watch out! -- building this yourself might actually become fun...  Cool  -- consider yourself warned.

OOoh -- a quick google of "RTD2120L" revealed that it is a 8051 processor!  I did a 8051 project in the past. (8051 is an old Intel 8 bit cpu -- was ultra popular in the industry in the past and in the "DIY" scene (before the DIY acronym existed probably!) -- so people/industry are still doing stuff with it -- or variants -- even the Teensy-guy Paul sells stuff about it). I hated the architecture every bit -- but I had quite some fun. Smiley  (was to interface a RC-helicopter receiver to connect it to a serial port on a PC to make an emulator to practice without breaking those darn blades each time it would fall on the ground). -- memories, memories.   Well that project actually worked fine, but I am still a very poor RC-Heli pilot.  :'(   I also see that it mentions 3 PWM channels in the spec but lists 6 of them in the pinouts. Anyway.  It all depends how this chip is actually wired on the "NYJTouch" board. 
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GwenLP
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« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2011, 09:44:05 PM »

Some news: I got an answer from ergpower.com. It reads so:
Quote
I believe our SFDMB3792F would be a good match for your displays. I've
attached the datasheet for your review.

Here is a link to this datasheet:
http://glp.lescigales.org/divers/wacom/SFDMB3792F.pdf

It is to be noted that they have 2 very similar drivers: the SFDM series and the SFDMD series, THE LATER APPARENTLY HAVING ITS OWN PWM SYSTEM.
Here are 2 general presentation specs for these.
http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/Smart%20Force%20SFDMD%20Driver.pdf
http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/Smart%20Force%20SFDM%20Driver.pdf

But there is a major drawback to these neat little (really small) solutions: price ! Apparently around 99$  Angry
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