Desperate for a 21.5"/22" IPS monitor.

[ZERO]

Hello Guys and Girls,
Firstly I'd like to say thank you for creating such a fantastic forum and community.
My name is Paul, I am a student Industrial/Product Designer, and the reason that i'm here is that i cant afford a 21" Cintiq, and even if i could, i still prefer the Hack route 

I really hoped that my first post on this forum would involve posting up a build log where everybody would 'Ooo' and 'Ahhh' at my amazing creation, but alas, reality hurts and I stand here shivering at your feet, like a lost dog out in the cold ....

...but just like that poor cold dog, I could really do with a big ole blanket of help (I think a warm meal would be asking too much ), as i've came up against a brick wall with my project, which in bad times has made me reconsider my motives and in worse times almost made me drop the project entirely.

(If you would like the skip to my real question, scroll down until you see the red brick wall)

Here's where i stand:
I really want a Cintiq...infact, so much so that i'll almost consider it a need, however, what I do not need is to buy into obsolete, or rather, soon to be obsolete technology.

The 21" Cintiq, as i see it, is basically an intuos3 with a panel shoved in front.
They both have the same 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity, and both feature 5 hardware keys and a touch strip.
The intuos3 has been updated to the intuos4, featuring double the sensitivity, a programmable touch ring and 8 OLED referenced buttons (the golden feature for me), however the Cintiq, as of yet, has not.

I feel that it is only a matter of time before the 21" Cintiq is updated, however i do not wish to wait for this imaginary future, as waiting in the technology world is a dangerous game to play; also I would rather see if it was possible to build this future myself, and maybe even one up the b*stards (Wacom, you are not b*stards, regardless of what i shout at my laptop when you refuse to reply to my emails )

So the plan i have, is to buy an intuos4 XL and build a DIY cintiq.
Firstly, i know that the intuos4 XL is rather expensive, but it will be my only monitor, which i plan on keeping this for a long time; also, at an estimated build cost of less than half of the current Cintiq's price, i think that it will be more than worth it.

I have contacted a local shop about buying the XL, and the owner has agreed to give me a fairly respectable discount, as he is quite interested in the project, but also thinks that I am crazy to be cracking open such new and expensive hardware.




With the sensor board and input hardware somewhat sorted, i then moved onto researching which monitor to use,
it is at the this point in which ive encountered a brick wall......I cannot find a suitable 21.5 or 22 inch monitor.

From the specs on the Wacom website, i have calculated the diagonal of the active area to be either 21.8 or 22.47, depending on which wacom site you believe.
So i have concluded that either a 21.5 or 22 inch monitor would be perfectly suit my needs, as it would drive my crazy to not be able to reach an object at the edge of the screen.
I have a few requirements of this screen which i will explain/list below.

• 21.5 or 22 inch diagonal viewable area - as explained above
• IPS or PVA panel - apart from my design work, i will use my monitor to design posters and edit photographs, so accurate colour reproduction is a must. Also being a tablet that i will be drawing on from many angles, colour shift is unacceptable
• LED or side CCFL lighting - LED is preferred for it's instant startup, even light distribution and energy savings, but side lighting CCFLs are acceptable. What is not acceptable is a rear light box like on the Dell 2209wa, which is extremely awkward to modify to side LED.
• Must display 1080p - I do a little bit of video editing at the moment, but plan to do more in the future, so either 1920 x 1080 or 1900 x 1200 is a must.
• Not so important stuff -
  Power supply being external/internal, ive read that it doesnt really matter all too much, but i'd prefer if it was on a separate board to the LCD driver.
  HDMI, it would be nice to be able to plug my xbox straight into the monitor, but i dont really mind, i would be happy with DVI-D and VGA.
  

.
I think thats about everything.
If anybody has any suggestions for a monitor that would suit some or preferably all of these requirements, PLEASE let me know.
I have searched a lot myself, and i'm still chasing down leads on monitors, but any external help would be greatly appreciated.

I am currently looking/trying to find information and availability of LG W2220P, Lenovo L220X, HP ZR22W and as a rank outsider, the screen from the new 21.5" iMac.

My apologies for the essay, and i'm sorry for wasting your time.
Rest assured, if you have spent too much time reading this, and have been bitch slapped, physically or otherwise, by your Wife or Boss, then feel free to let me know via PM, and I will reply with a photo of the bitch slap being passed on to me...with the power of the internet, we can now make it possible to send a bitch slap via a telephone cable...oh the age we live in!
(now, if i could only get it to work via xbox live  )



Thank you in advance for any help received, or even to those who bother to read the post.

Regards,

Paul



PS: Any 21" Cintiq owners who do not like what i have said should be aware that my opinion is purely based on jealousy, so much so that I am generously offering my services as your personal long term Cintiq tester, in an effort to prove myself wrong, and undo these injustices that i have caused 

[cellofaan]

First of all, YAY for the story. Regarding build logs, to me, the more information the better. I've read too many build logs that had a part of which I thought 'I really want to know more on that in detail'. And when it's entertaining as well, I'm happy.

On the size of the Intuos4XL.
My wacom site states 462x304.8 mm active area. That is about 18.2x12 inch
You would then want a screen which is the same or smaller in both dimensions.

On a 4:3 screen, a 20" would fit and leave some room on the side
On a 16:10 screen, 21.4" would be a a good fit. They don't exist, so a 21.5" might do it depending on the precise dimensions. otherwise, 21"
On a 16:9 screen, 20.8" would fit, but these don't exist either, so a 20.1" is the biggest that would go
http://forum.bongofish.co.uk/index.php?topic=170.0

So, you can either go the safe route and get a 21" 16:10, or you can buy the tablet and remeasure before you buy a screen.

Here's a list of all/most panels and their specs. There's also a search function to find monitors for a panel, though they don't have full info on all screens.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_parts.htm


Edit: I just found a website which states it's the same size as the intuos3 A3+ wide
So, better get the tablet and measure it, just to be sure. So a 22" 16x10 would fit,
    LGD           e-IPS           LM220WE4           1680x1050   6ms G2G   1000:1   300   178/178   16.7m      
    Samsung    S-PVA         LTM220CS01        1920x1200   6ms G2G   1000 : 1   300   178/178   16.7m   
    Samsung    S-PVA         LTM220M3           1680x1050   6ms G2G   1000:1   300   178/178   16.7m   92%

Only one IPS panel available. Too bad the only monitor which houses it (according to the website) is the dell.
I heard PVA panels are quite good on colours too, but I'm not exactly an expert on the subject.

[bernard]

Maybe getting "all-in-one" will be more difficult (and risky/pricey):

For your 1080p video editing, color precision/deepness, color stability, and all those great-LCD features, I would get a large, (but separate) LCD screen.  With all those features, the price will be high (so you will want not to void warranty) and you might also want to have the monitor stand up 90 degrees instead of on the desk (thinking about video here). But that is a personal choice.

Then I would hunt for a screen for a Wacom of your choice with the physical and internal features. It may not need it to be super-large anymore (since it would be a second screen essentially).

Just a thought.

[ZERO]

@Bernard. Thank you for your input.
I think you are right in that i will most likely have to come to a compromise when it comes to choosing my display, just at the moment i'm trying to research the best possible display for my current design.
If i cant find anything worthwhile i will either compromise on the display, or maybe even change the tablet that i use to suit, i'm still quite unsure.

Regarding the stand, i have planned out a few designs for stands that should give the same functionality as the current Cintiq, and some with additional features.
I will probably leave designing the stand until later on in the build, but i think features such as rotation, ability to lay flat, and stability, are very important.
I am still trying to decide between a desk mount and a VESA type wall mount, but i think that a standard desk mount might be better for retaining some sort of mobility.

Thank you again for sharing your opinion. Thats the reason i posted up this help message, just so i could bounce ideas off people that already know the ins and outs of such projects  



@cellofaan
I'm glad you liked the story I had really planned on writing so much. It was more of a brain dump than anything else, and I was somewhat trying to explain it to myself as much as anybody else.

Thank you for the links and the information on the sizes.
I might wait take exact measurements off the intous4 xl when/if i get it, just to be sure...but it will mean that there is no backing out by that stage

I'll have a look at those displays and see if they lead to anything definite.

Just a note, i got a reply from apple today, and a 21.5" IPS LED iMac monitor would cost me $649 american dollars....so i think its safe to say that that is off the cards.
LG also replied to me, and after the massive email i sent them, the reply just directed me to ring customer service, as they would be able to better advise me on a solution  ...i think the main problem is that LG sell different monitors in different monitors in different regions, so i'll have a word with customer service tomorrow and see if they can point me in the right direction.

Sorry for the messy and short reply. i need to be up in 6 hours, so every minute counts   I will probably come back and tidy it up tomorrow night.

Thanks again for your help so far guys, i really appreciate it

[Pilpil]

At least you know what you want hehe. I'm also looking for a monitor to build with large intuos, but I believe mine is a bit smaller (Intuos2 A3, still waiting to recieve it and measure).

I'm not so worried about resolution or color display, since is going to be my second monitor. What I need is one that works, is not too much to ask for, isnt it ?

Anyway, I found this site in which you can search monitors by screen size, type of lcd and (Yay!) external-internal supply, among other things. I don't know how complete it is, but maybe it would help you: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/ausstattung_auswahl.html

Good luck, and keep us informed of your progress.

[Drewid]

I used to have the display cloned, so I could look at the desktop screen to double check colours and such.

[bernard]

add your link to the useful stuff area of the forum.   **Eventually** we will get a Wiki and we can update that...  http://wiki.bongofish.co.uk mister Northcott? 

[ZERO]

Hi guys,
sorry for taking so long to reply, ive been away for chinese new year (i'm irish, but studying in Hong Kong) so i havent been able to set aside time to progress my projects.

Anyway, i think im going to take the advice that some of you have offered and compromise.
Seeing as it will most likely become a secondary display (as i'm looking at buying an imac within the next year), the quality of the panel can afford to take a hit.
I know that TN panels aren't the greatest, but the viewing angles have improved lately and they also give me a wider range of options.

So as of now, my requirements have changed to

• 21/21.5"
• 16:9/16:10
• 1080p
• LED
• Preferably external PSU to reduce case size

I think thats about it.
Im considering going for the Large as opposed to the extra large, although i think in the long run ill need the space that the extra large offers.

I'll post up as soon as i get more info on possible screens

Regards

Paul

[ZERO]

Just an update on where I currently stand.

I've been away for the past 2 or so weeks, so havent had any time to search for a monitor.

I also might be reconsidering my options on whether i should build a tablet or wait and buy an iPad.

Gonna mull it over for the next few days, but i'll report back if there are any updates with hunt for the monitor

[cellofaan]

I can't imagine the pressure sensitivity of the iPad would be nearly as good as the wacom's, so it wouldn't be as good for drawing. It is a very very sexy thing however.
I would go for DIY of anything rather than buy the real thing. The project itself is as much fun as having it finished. Though I wouldn't know as mine isn't finished yet.
On the other hand, having an iPad is extremely cool too.

[bernard]

Can you use a pen with an iPad?

[ZERO]

You know, after all the humming and hawing (thinking) that i've been doing over the past few days about it, I completely forgot that the iPad doesn't use a pen (i'm sure its possible somehow, but it wont be accurate enough) so thats a complete deal breaker.
I have sketchbook pro on my iphone and even though it is useful for messing around with and practicing rendering, it is extremely limited and the line weighting is based purely on finger speed, as opposed to a dynamic of both pen speed and pressure.

I think i've finally come to the conclusion that the tablet will primarily be a secondary monitor, so wasting my time and money searching for a suitable IPS panel isn't really worth my while.
So i'll either be using it in combination with an iMac, which has an IPS panel, so i can use that for checking colour accuracy or i'll be using it with a tower computer (mac pro or hackintosh).
My dream setup would be three large IPS displays for productivity (read:gaming) and the tablet as a separate unit that i can drag around, either to where i'm working or into college.

Also, it seems like Wacom have beat me to the punch with updating the Cintiq.
http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/cintiq-21ux.php
Whether this means that market will now be flooded with people trying to unload their cintiq in order to upgrade (would be nice, but unlikely)
or if this justifies my feelings for the now obsolete cintiq, i really don't know; All i know is that its really cool, and watching the video has somewhat reinvigorated my interests for this project.
The one thing that I don't think i'll be able to replicate is the number of express keys, as i think the Cintiq now features 16, although they could be mirrored side to side.
This doesn't really bother me, as I cant really see a scenario where i'd be using the right hand keys, as that hand would always be occupied by the pen.

Anyway, on with the progress report.
I travelled up the HongKong Computer center today in Mong Kok and had a look for suitable monitors.
For things such as computer monitors,i now know how important to see them in person is to determining their quality.
A few monitors which sounded decent from their spec, looked awful and some that were quite conservative in their marketing spiel were amazing looking.
I came to realize that even though all the monitors I was looking at today were TN based, the viewing angles were more than acceptable, which squashed the fear of TNs that i had after using a Dell monitor for several years, which had horrid viewing angles.

The two that stood out for me were:
Acer P225HQL - HK$ 1490/€139/£126
http://us.acer.com/acer/seu30e.do?LanguageISOCtxParam=en&link=ln374e&CountryISOCtxParam=US&acond125e=72052&kcond48e.c2att101=72052&sp=page17e&ctx1g.c2att92=169&ctx2.c2att1=0&ctx1.att21k=1&CRC=885760793
and
Aoc E2236Vwa - no idea of pricing, sorry.
http://www.aoc-europe.com/en/monitors/led/22_E2236Vwa.php

I'm currently heavily leaning towards the Acer as they are a brand that I have used before, it's viewing angles were extremely good and also because the specs are everything that i desire.
It's features are 21.5" diagonal, 16:9, 1080p, TN with crystalbrite (whatever that is), WLED, VGA, DVI-D.
I dont know if it has an external PSU or not, but I said before, i'm not sure if this would be anything other than a packaging issue.

Does anybody have any experiences with either company? or even better, with either product?
I may well go and pull the trigger on the Acer monitor tomorrow and try give this project some legs, as its been starting to wear on me as of late.

Thanks for all your help so far guys and thank you for putting up with my essay length replies; they are generally as much of a response as they are a means of getting thoughts down on paper.

Regards

Paul

[cellofaan]

Acer is somewhat of a budget brand. The TN panel may be good, but the case and other stuff will be cheapish compared to more expensive brands.
This is actually a good thing for us, as the monitor will probably be easier to assemble.

[ZERO]

Thanks for the input Cellofaan.

They may be a budget brand, but they have collaborated with Ferrari on a number of projects, so that would give me a little bit more of reassurance, as opposed some of the other fly by night brands out there.

To be perfectly honest, i'm not too bothered about the case, as it will be promptly heading for the bin. Also, I tried to choose a monitor with as few extraneous features as possible (less things for them to get wrong) so the monitor doesn't feature any touch panel or buttons.

I'm going to have another look tomorrow, but it currently seems like my best option.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply : )

Paul

[ZERO]

BRIEF UPDATE:

Bought a monitor yesterday. Its a Benq v2210.
21.5"
16:9
LED
vga and hdmi input
TN panel with only minor colour shift so far, at extreme angles and only with light colours so far.
The power supply is internal, but the video input and the power input are quite distant from each other in the rear case, so im hoping that they are on seperate boards.

Its very good so far, the quality and the response time are equally good.

I'll post pictures later on, as i have a lecture now : )