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Author Topic: Cintiq 15X PL-550  (Read 18328 times)
wolfsoull
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« on: August 07, 2010, 06:56:37 PM »

3 years ago i bought a used Cintiq 15x PL-550 with some problems in LCD for 60£, and now by see all this informations here i thinking if i can change the damage LCD monitor 15" for a new one 15" ?

here is some photos of the cintiq problem:


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bernard
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 12:05:40 AM »

That looks like a bad connection. (it does not mean it is easy to repair)

It might be possible to replace the LCD Panel without changing the electronics inside (LVDS driver, inverter) -- but you'd have to find either the exact same LCD Panel component or one with the same specifications.

Bonus: If you change the LCD and you snap in another LVDS driver, then you might be able to augment the resolution of the screen.

One thing for sure:  if you open your product, I will ask you to take a few measurements so we learn a bit more about Wacom Cintiqs.  Grin

If you give up on your Cintiq, then don't throw it away: someone will buy the Wacom portion of it.  Roll Eyes
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bernard
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 12:47:49 AM »

Could you take a snapshot of your display while displaying RGB color bars? (Pure black to R,G,B bars)?

Here's a picture to try out:


* rgb_colorbars.png (14.3 KB. 345x256 - viewed 531 times.)


And here's another one:


(source  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RGB_24bits_palette_color_test_chart.png )

« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:02:07 AM by bernard » Logged
bernard
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 04:04:58 AM »

From the LCD OSD (On Screen Display menu), if you change the brightness (and contrast) -- as in lowering then -- does some of the artifact go away?

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wolfsoull
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 10:08:34 AM »

That looks like a bad connection. (it does not mean it is easy to repair)

It might be possible to replace the LCD Panel without changing the electronics inside (LVDS driver, inverter) -- but you'd have to find either the exact same LCD Panel component or one with the same specifications.

Bonus: If you change the LCD and you snap in another LVDS driver, then you might be able to augment the resolution of the screen.

One thing for sure:  if you open your product, I will ask you to take a few measurements so we learn a bit more about Wacom Cintiqs.  Grin

If you give up on your Cintiq, then don't throw it away: someone will buy the Wacom portion of it.  Roll Eyes

my ideia is find a complete 15" LCD monitor with LVDS driver etc to change with the cintiq one, basically do the same process would have to do by join an lcd with a tablet, drawing on the Cintiq tablet and put on the new lcd and LVDS.

here are the tests with the bars:





From the LCD OSD (On Screen Display menu), if you change the brightness (and contrast) -- as in lowering then -- does some of the artifact go away?



bernard : chanching the brightness and contrast to 0 solve the this problem! Smiley but the lcd is very dark when i find the 15" lcd i will trie change the monitor

i will open the cintiq and take some photos for you!
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bernard
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 04:17:54 PM »

Your thinking about changing the LCD is good and realistic.  But fixing the original LCD is also another effort I think is worth the try. 

I see the photos you taken:  Is it close to what you see in reality?  How would you qualify the issues you have?  Here I see:

- I see "vertical bars" everywhere -- but maybe this is just because we are looking at a photo?
- everything looks purple-ish
- the green channel seems the problematic one. In the middle of the bar, it sort fails. I mean the "high" portion is not showing as high.

Take more shots:
- Take a very-close shot (if you can) -- enough to distinguish the little LCD Red Green Blue dots. Want to check if we see a pattern here. Especially in problematic areas.
- Change the resolution of the screen to something smaller -- like 800x600 -- It might give a hint on which portion of the circuitry is failing (inside the LCD Panel or is it the LVDS board). Take a shot of the RGB bars with that.
- (probably it won't do anything in your case but have you tried changing the frequency of the monitor?  60Hz, 75Hz)

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wolfsoull
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 04:51:15 PM »

Your thinking about changing the LCD is good and realistic.  But fixing the original LCD is also another effort I think is worth the try. 

I see the photos you taken:  Is it close to what you see in reality?  How would you qualify the issues you have?  Here I see:

- I see "vertical bars" everywhere -- but maybe this is just because we are looking at a photo?
- everything looks purple-ish
- the green channel seems the problematic one. In the middle of the bar, it sort fails. I mean the "high" portion is not showing as high.

Take more shots:
- Take a very-close shot (if you can) -- enough to distinguish the little LCD Red Green Blue dots. Want to check if we see a pattern here. Especially in problematic areas.
- Change the resolution of the screen to something smaller -- like 800x600 -- It might give a hint on which portion of the circuitry is failing (inside the LCD Panel or is it the LVDS board). Take a shot of the RGB bars with that.
- (probably it won't do anything in your case but have you tried changing the frequency of the monitor?  60Hz, 75Hz)



bernard

the photos is almost the same in reality! the quality of the lcd is very poor is like the old´s tft that we see in the 1º´s notebook you remember it?
i tried everthing you say change 800X600 and the frequemcy but is the same the only thing that solve it is reduce all de brightness and contrast to 0!!
because of that i want change the LCD for a new one. what is the best choise?:

- buy a 15" notebook LCD and the LCD controller kit or a 15" TFT monitor and disassemble it?

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bernard
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 05:37:36 PM »

Now here's theory of what is happening on the screen:  Every 2 columns, the green channel has the "wrong" intensity. In particular, its "high" bit is always zero. If the brightness is set to "half" (that might mean setting to 0 like you did) you avoid using the high intensity and you thus avoid the issue. But of course you only have half of the intensity on the screen!

Sorry about this, I am still trying to find a way to fix your LCD panel -- in parallel, yes, need to get a properly sized LCD.  You can even think of boosting the resolution up to 1050 lines! That would be a nice upgrade!


for the LCD panel repair:

At this stage it can either be in the LVDS driver or the LCD Panel. Changing the resolution might give a hint, but depending on the result, we might still not know.

When you can, open the Cintiq and report the LCD Panel model number. We can maybe find the datasheet for it. If this is a similar setup than a TabletPC, the LCD Panel sticker *might* be hidden behind the Wacom (red-ish) sensor board. They "slipped" the very thin Wacom sensor between the LCD Panel "box" and the LCD Panel "circuit". So you might need to remove it to see the LCD Panel sticker.

I am thinking that maybe one of the LVDS channel link (if it's a 2 channel LVDS) would be faulty, but typically each channel maps to different rows (not different columns). So that does not make sense. If it is a 2 channel LVDS (about 50% chances for a XGA resolution) that gives another hint of where the problem might lie.

My guess is that probably the LCD driver circuitre probably drives 2 pixels at a time and one side has a misconnection (a bad/cold soldering on a pad) -- OR it is entirely inside a IC (chip) -- in which case there is nothing we can do. To diagnose, I will want to see a close shot of the LCD Panel circuitry.  But first thing first.  Change the resolution and give out the result. Then open the cintiq and get the LCD Panel model number (and take nice pictures of the inside of the Cintiq!). yay!

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wolfsoull
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 06:54:51 PM »

i begain the disassemble, bernard how i pull this cables?

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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 09:38:00 PM »

Not to step on Bernards toes, but that cable looks like you should pull the brown bar towards the cable ( away from the socket )  the cable will be loose, and then just pull it out..

but what i wanted to add, to the topic, is that your problem looks almost identical to what my build look like when the VGA cable is loose ( and it gets this way then it's not secured inside my build )   ...
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bernard
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 11:15:13 PM »

thegreenbean is right: there are even little "arrows" on the brown connector that guides you on what to do.  You pull the brown piece a little (pulling in the "direction" of the cable) -- and then the cable will be "free" to get out. This is the same FFC connector we see everywhere (on this forum).  Do not apply too much force, you do not want to break anything.

BTW: Although I happen to be answering to a lot of posts, this is a public forum and I invite everybody to answer!  More people = more fun! Smiley
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 11:16:45 PM by bernard » Logged
wolfsoull
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 11:48:59 AM »

finally finished the disassembly Smiley

bernard here is the photos of cintiq pl-500











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bernard
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 03:34:17 PM »

nice piece of jewerly!  Smiley

So the LCD Panel seems to be a "Hyundai HT15X22-10"   Luckily, its datasheet came up quickly on Google: http://www.agpartsworldwide.com/lcd_specs/HT15X22-100.pdf

8-bit color, 4-CCFL
And.. hum, its says:
TTL Interface with 2pixel / clock
TTL ! -- that might mean it is not LVDS. But that changes the interface, it might actually help us!

So it is possible the issue is simply the connection.  The faulty connector would be either:  connector pin 20 (GA7) or pin 50 (GB7) --- this is the high bit of the green channel (odd or even)--  (I do not know if it is the odd columns or even columns that are "wrong" (starting at column 0).  In other words, if the first column on the left side is not good, the problem should be GA7. If the first column no the left is good then the issue is pin 50 (GB7).  Looking at the pictures, I am guessing pin 20 (GA7) is the problematic signal.

Do you have a multimeter or some sort of continuity tester?  (you can build one with a little lamp + battery + wire).

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wolfsoull
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 03:44:03 PM »

bernard i dont have one! and i dont have the little lamp + battery + wire too Sad

but tell me my ideia is remove the old LCD and  use only the tablet in the new LCD monitor what monitor you recommend? and LVDS driver, inverter to the new one?
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bernard
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 04:05:47 PM »

You have to understand that getting a new LCD is risky. It might not work the first shot. There might be jitter which is not that fun to deal with. (might have to buy another LCD, until you find one that works).  Also, it will most probably not fit the case - you might will have to do case modifications. You might have to "unfold" the LCD as its circuits is on the back of the LCD -- not the safest operation -- other have ruined their LCDs doing just that. (LCDs are fragile and not meant to be "unfolded".) Your LCD (I am not 100% sure yet, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems all the circuitry of the HT LCD is on the edges only).

That is, unless you find the exact same LCD model to "drop in". (there is always the possibility that the issue is in the driver circuit or simply in the connector cable which can be found for like 5..15$ online.

I cannot recommend anything since this is essentially "junkyard hunting" and the only thing I can say is to go with whatever has worked before to be on the safe side. Now, I know nobody that has the same tablet as yours that tried to match a LCD. So no luck with past experience. You are alone in this path I believe (but you can try to search).

The only thing I could recommend is to find the exact same part and buy that. But it seems that they are not LVDS, so I have no idea where to find TTL-driver circuit for cheap (i.e. less than 350$US). 

If we can find where is the problem, we can replace or fix that problem, end of story, you have a slick, perfect Cintiq.

Don't read me wrong: I am not trying to discourage you since you might very well have to go through all that anyway: Replacing the whole thing is indeed the good approach if your LCD is not 'easy' to fix.

But at least "try" to fix it -- I am helping you now -- note: I will be gone for 2-3 weeks on vacation next week, so better hurry up.

A multimeter (with continuity tester -- they all do that nowadays) can be found for cheap in a local shop or online. It is always good for battery testing anyway.

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