Bongofish
November 18, 2017, 12:59:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: You can attach photos hosted by the forum rather than using an external image hosting site, this means they will stay forever and not disappear after a year or two.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Monitors/Laptops screens; That jitter and that don't!!  (Read 6037 times)
Aerendraca
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1068


View Profile
« on: October 24, 2012, 10:49:47 AM »

Ok so I want to start a thread similar to the "Good Monitors" thread but with some rules.

A. The screen must have been tested for this application; i.e To build a DIY Cintiq
B. The information present in each new post must be limited to the requirements list below and presented in the same way:
_______________________________________________________________________

1. No Jitter / Jitters! (select one)
2. On a scale of 1-10 (where 1 is 'No jitter' & 10 is 'Unusable'), please select: 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
3. *Wacom tablet used* (please also include the size)
4. *Monitor/screen name & panel model number if known*
5. Natural screen resolution & resolution used for your build
6. Did you use Powerstrip (or equivalent) to improve the jitter: Yes/No (feel free to add a comment here)
7. *Additional comments can go here*
8. Would you recommend this screen: Yes/No
 
That's it. Just feel it might make selecting new panels easier for future Diy Cintiq builders.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 11:00:57 AM by Aerendraca » Logged
Aerendraca
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1068


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2012, 11:00:22 AM »

1. Jitters!
2. 2
3. Intuos 2 12"x12" Oversize
4. LG Flatron L1753PR - Panel: LM170-E03 TLL1
5. 1280 x 1024 (same resolution used)
6. Did you use Powerstrip (or equivalent) to improve the jitter: Yes
7. Heavy shielding of the tft circuitry was required. A modified power source was also used, and ccfl backlight was removed.
8. Would you recommend this screen: No
Logged
Demontiq
Full Member
***
Posts: 68


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 03:40:43 PM »

Aerandraca, I' ll follow you up with the widely used 1503fp and my own experience with the LP150E05 A3K2.
Really like this initiative! It's good for people who just start out to find a screen (+tablet) that just works and not having to worry about jitters Cheesy

Dell 1503FP
1. No Jitter
2. 1 (No jitterbugs anywhere)
3. UD1212-R (serial), Intuos 3 A4 (9x12)
4. Dell 1503fp
5. 1024x768
6. Nope
7. --
8. Yes, although I would suggest looking for an alternative as the color and resolution as well as the viewing angles of this monitor aren't all that great.
 
LG Philips LP150E05(A3K2)
1. Very slight jitter
2. 2. Jitter is only slightly noticeable, I did get a nasty effect of the Wacom actually interfering with the screen, causing lines on the lcd, pinpointed this issue to the bottom circuit of the screen, so some shielding might fix the issue.
3. Intuos 3 A4 (9x12)
4. LG Philips Model no. LP150E05(A3K2)
5. 1400x1050
6. Tried powerstrip to change the frequencies, ended up with 67 Hz causing the least interference lines on the screen, altough they were still there.
7. Beware of tablet interfering with this screen, I have no idea why or what, or if it is just my tablet being annoying. Should be fixable though.
8. Yes/Maybe

Cheers,
~Demontiq~
Logged
pntbll248
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 34


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 08:11:53 PM »

B154PW01
1. Jitters
2. 4-5 for Jitter alone, 10 for pen dropout, 0-1 with proper shielding
3. Intuos4 Large
4. B154PW01
5. 1440x900
6. Yep.
7. Most of the interference using this panel comes from the R.RM3251 or R.RM5451 controller as opposed to the TFT circuitry. Very easy to shield. There are lots and lots of variants of this screen, and not all are easy to strip. Try to find the exact B154PW01 panel if at all possible. Exhibits strong dropout effect in three separate panels before shielding -- the pens does not communicate fluidly with digitizer. Instead, it skips across the screen, with localized deadspots that do not respond to cursor movement even when the pen is pressed directly against the screen.
8. Yes, with shielding

B141PW01
1. Jitters
2. 3
3. Intuos4 Large
4. B141PW01. Also compatible with LP141WP1(T#)(##) -- equally difficult to strip.
5. 1440x900
6. Yep, helps a bit, but not as well as proper shielding
7. Same as above, most of the interference comes from the controller board as opposed to the TFT circuitry. Stripping is virtually impossible without specialized tools and an extremely delicate touch, could be stripped more easily if you are willing to break the CCFL and install replacement afterwards. In my panel at least, the CCFL bulb was attached at both ends to one metal bracket, and glued to another metal bracket in the middle, making it a very delicate panel. Could be the best size with the Intuos4 Large (Allows for the entire screen to be used with no deadzone at edges).
8. No.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 06:54:08 AM by pntbll248 » Logged
pntbll248
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 34


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 12:38:15 AM »

LP156WF4 (LED IPS, 15.6")

1. Jitters
2. 9-10 with and without shielding, shielding of TFT circuitry and controller board (R.RM5451) with 3x layers 2.0mil copper, conductive adhesive.
3. Intuos4 Large
4. LP156WF4 (SL)(B1)
5. 1920x1080
6. Yes, helps more than shielding but not much
7. It was very surprising that an LED panel resulted in so much interference. The pen cursor had approximately 8 false clicks per second, and bounced around within a 14mm circle at 2cm from the TFT circuitry. In the middle of the screen, cursor jitter was still around 5mm with random clicks once every few seconds. Excessive shielding of every piece of circuitry and wire was completely ineffectual, even with multiple attempts at grounding the shielding both to the wall ground and the signal ground. Tested with two screens and two controllers.
8. Unless the interference can be fixed, this screen is worthless
Logged
cabroon
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 43


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 05:32:37 PM »

My two cents based on the cabroontiq build.

1. Jitters!
2. 0.1 on the center area. 9-10 on the 3  cms left edge (where the led strip is), random clicks on the top left menu bar area. No pen dropouts.
3. Intuos4 xl 12 x 19
4. AOC 21.5”  e2243fw
5. Natural screen resolution 1920x 1080 . resolution used for your build: 1680x1050 image warps a little when rotated.
6. Did you use Powerstrip (or equivalent) to improve the jitter: I tried but powerstrip only gave me two choices for screen refresh rate, 60 and 59 hz, and there was no diference with both.
7. I plugged it to my older laptop and the jitters were virtually none on the center part, maybe a graphics card thing? and reduced greatly on the edges. Grounding and isolating the display the leds and the circuitry made almost no difference. 
8. Would you recommend this screen: Yep. this monitor is very resistant, only one circuit panel on top, 6 mm thickness of the whole screen , external control board with long ffc cables, which makes it easier to handle during the testing stage.  Almost perfect fit for a 12 x 19 tablet. Even with the jittery areas, it still gives you lots of space to work with.  I still recommend it.
Recomendation to everyone, plug your build to a different computer. That might reduce or eliminate jitter.
Logged
DaBotz
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 227



View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 01:28:26 AM »

1. Jitters!
2. 2 ( - 3) in the middle of the screen', 7 - 8 along the borders
3. Intuos2 12x18 (XD-1218-U)
4. HP LE2201w - Panel: Samsung LTM220MT05
5. 1680x1050 (1680x1050)
6. No (not even tried)
7. The room ground dispersal is shot, so the build receives noise from other appliances and the Spanish electric grid, without being able to disperse it..
As a consecuence, "depending on the day" - and just even on the way the cables are routed on the desc - jitter can be as small as ±0.1 mm Y axis, ±0.2mm X axis with virtually no false clics.
Or it can be virtually unusable, with continuous false clicks.
Initially, it had plenty of jitter and false clicks, but a copious amout of ferrites on the usb cable and grounding together the screen tcon board and the digitizers noise shield ameliorated it dramatically. Also, it isolated it from the spikes in the USB line created by the hard discs in the desktop during disc intensive operations
The last cm near the lamps, or to the support frame, jitter is tenfold and clics are numerous - or not. Again, it kind of depends on the day...
It is a thick screen, at 13 mm, with CCFL lights. Relatively easty to strip and prepare.
8. Not sure, I still have to revise an alternative screen to see if it works better than this.
This is a good screen, as good as as a CCFL can be, nonetheless, and a judicious use of lazy nezumi pro makes it a joy to use.


UPDATE: Removing every other peripheric from the  USB HUB integrated in the case and routing the USB cable, from it directly to a USB socket at the back of the computer, slightly reduced the Jitter and, maybe more importantly, made it more consistent - most of the time, in the "drawing area" ( 3 cm from th borders of the screen) the jitter is down to one pixel.  Connecting other peripherals to the USB hub, or connecting the tablet through a hub, strengthens the jitter.

______________________________________________________________________


1. Jitters!
2. 10+
3. Huion H610
4. Panel: LP116wh2, Controller: M.nt 68676.2A (kit from an ebay seller called chinatobby)
5. 1366x768
6. No
7. Beyond the numerous false clicks and general jittering, something inside the panel acted like a toroidal lens, so that there were two vertical bands in the screen where the horizontal movement of the pen was distorted. Once realized this, working on shielding it lost sense.
8. Not at all, at least with the Huion.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:32:09 AM by DaBotz » Logged

The most incredible artist of... Barbanza?
DaBotz
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 227



View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 06:36:54 PM »

1. No Jitters(?)
2. 1 - 2
3. Intuos 4 L (PTK-840)
4. Panel: B154PW01, Controller: R.RM5251 (Tabletmod Large specs)
5. 1440x900 (1440x900)
6. No
7. Initially, problems with "random daily jitter", solved using ferrites as common mode chokes on the USB and power cables.
Added note: the inverter and the VGA board are mounted one beyond and the other almost beyond the limits of the Intuos; also , below the intuos is placed a sheet of aluminium foil.

Dim colours and narrow viewing angles, also, the total of the Intuos + the screen + the controller is superior to a new Monoprice 19" (which screen seems, spec-wise, a bigger brother of this) and this latter lack of tilt sensitivity is hardly a problem for someone that never used it

(update: the horrible fame that they earned notwithstandimg, I am stll curious about that monoprice...).

8. No, unless one has no intentions of doing colour works.  
    
______________________________________________________________________
1. No Jitters
2. 1 - 1.1
3. Intuos 2 m (XD-0608-u)
4. Panel: LP097X02 SLEA, Controller: VS-TY2662-V1
                 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HDMI-VGA-2AV-Driver-board-9-7inch-1024x768-LP097X01-LP097X02-IPS-lcd-panel-/170933836825?hash=item27cc735c19 - mixed feelings about this seller, though... another controller of his that I have, fails to see when it receives a signal on the DVI input and I have to "wake" it changing resolution a couple of times, when it happens
Extremely late update - it's my PC graphic board, as it does the same with my new TV ).

The Controller is attached to USB 2.0 to VGA Adapter (Photoshop has issues with them the issues are when moving the application on that screen with an already open drawing, as P.E. uses some double bufering strategy when it has a true graphic board in front, but Manga Studio works fine).

5. 1024x768(1024x768)
6. No
7. I still have to build the final case, so I may be forced to revise this post in the future. Final in assembled build, 1 pixel on the Y axis at 1 hz frequency, or less - usable with no stroke stabilization of any kind, anyway.

Virtually no jitter from the panel ( worse case scenario, I will keep the controller out of the way... the LVDS cable is some 20 cm long).

The Wacom driver check tool gives me no jitter at all on the Y axis, and at most a +- 0.05 mm on the x axis (hardly moves a pixel, with a frequency of about one movement per second).


Drawing, feels like it is even less.  

8. Very small, the 6 bits per colour channel make themselves feel, a bit of an hard-thingy to mod and do not even start if you do not have access to FCC extender for the LED's line (it a 0.5 mm pitch, 9 lanes flexible pcb... NJYTouch sells ZIT to ZIF extenders and cables now), but great viewing angles.

If I do not fumble things with the case, it promises to be a great Secondary UBiQ(Yes, I am full of Inhuman Hubris... )  

Errata corrige: the jitter, really, is on the Y axis.

Additional Note: I finally bought a colorimeter (a DataColor Spyder4Express...) and I  set forth
to calibrate the monitors that I use to draw, and had way to compare each "X-Q" screen.

Beyond its 6-bits nature, this LCD appears unable to cover more than 79% of the sRGB colour space (about 50% of the Adobe colour space).

If you are interested in a build of this size, woodguy32 has produced very nice ones using the retina screens from the IPAD 3 &4, coupled with eDP controllers, that should have not only a much higher resolution and require less space, but also have better colours.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 10:13:08 PM by DaBotz » Logged

The most incredible artist of... Barbanza?
DaBotz
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 227



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 01:00:31 PM »

1. Jitters
2. 1 - 3
3. Intuos 2 XL (XD-1218-u)
4. Monitor: LG IPS224v, IPS. LED, 1920x1080 - the LED strip heats notably the right border of the screen.  
5. 1920x1080
6. No
7. In view of my experience on the next build, it could be wise to plan for an update of its TCON-board RF cage, that I didn't cared too much for when I built it.
    In the center the jitter is down to a pixel, with a low frequency.
    On the right-left sides, the jitter is much more pronounced (about 1 mm).
    No false clicks.  
    It has no provisions in the design to be taken apart, so expect to be forced to flip all the layers in the diffuser and end up with dust and light bleeds.
On the other side, extending the LED lines requires only a modicum of soldering ability and materials. If needed, the FFC connecting LCD and board is a garden variety FFC with a latcher on one side - both are easily found on ebay.
 
8. Yes - it is wider than the tablet's active area, but it is a very good screen, internally it has about 40 cm of FFC connecting the HDMI/DVI/VGA board to the panel that simplifies relocating the board,  the LED strip is powered through six individual cables about 1mm thick (with isolation), that were very easy to extend.
The PWM  probably uses a frequency low enough that adding the irregularities of the extensions, to the cables, didn't produce notable effects.

_____________________________________________________

1. Jitters
2. 1 - 3(5?)
3. Intuos 2 XL (XD-1218-u)
4. Monitor: LG 20mp48, IPS  LED VGA only !.  
5. 1440x900
6. No
7. There is an inductor in the TCON, at the bottom of the LCD,  that is a powerful source of interference, and shielding the TCON is necessary, useful and requires a serious effort.
    Even with shielding in place ( a fully enclosing RF cage, made with the metal from the LCD back panel), though, the right forty mm of the screen are affected by a serious jitter, false clicks and pressure blots, though in a much more restrained form.
    Internally, between the VGA board and the LCD there is a whole 10 cm (!) long FFC cable, of the same type found in the IPS224v - 30 pins, 1mm pitch, flip-side with a latcher on one side and a ZIF on the other.

The TFT circuitry is natively at the bottom - like in the IPS224V. Even the LED cables are of the same kind, though just 3 instead of 6

The center of the screen hardly shows any jitter at all, so a clever disposition of GUI elements can still make it well usable.

Update: adding common mode chokes and moving it to its final destination reduced the amount of false clicks to an acceptable level; also, the image quality is just gorgeous, and its relatively large dot pitch makes it easier for my eyes... I am really becoming short-sighted.

Second Update: Changing the refresh frequency to 75 Hz reduced yet a bit the Jitter and the false clicks in the "noise zone", though it does not eliminate them; I didn't try before, because I had it as a "supernumerary" monitor under a USB-VGA adapter that did not allow it.

8. Yes And No;  on one hand, it is a nice screen and it is - also - nice to have all GUI elements natively reachable without having to "carve out" screen portions with Power Strip.

On the other, it is not really an improvement on the IPS224v.
Also, to the cost of its purchase must be added that of the FFC cable that is needed to move the VGA board out of the way (6 Euros).

It requires as good an RF cage around the TCON board as one can source and or build, so it is surely not recommended to anybody that has problems acquiring/building such an element.

Finally, it only has one VGA input, which probably adds to its issues (the 224, which looks a lot like its "big, old brother", was much jittier and even clickier, when using the VGA).

In all, the IPS224v is a better proposition, really, and used (after all, the very first thing we do is opening up the LCD to remove its metal blackplate, invalidating any warranty they may have) it costs about the same as this monitor that, being very recent,  can hardly be found second-hand.

[Supplementary note, after some months of use:] - picture quality is, actually, quite better than that of the IPS224v, as the mesh grid around the pixels is thinner and less intrusive, and, also it is actually brighter, while heating up a lot less (possibly also because RF cage reaches the LED strip and acts as a heatsink ).

A pity the VGA-only connection...

Additional Note: I finally bought a colorimeter (a DataColor Spyder4Express... the "Pro" version may be better - it supports multiple screens setups natively,  but I managed a workaround to use the Express and the colour profiles it creates on different screens - all one need is a "changer" for the ICC format "internal description" and then manually set each screen with its profile), and I set forth to calibrate the monitors that I use to draw.

I have calibrated both these monitors and it appears that, color-wise they are pretty much the same... the IPS224v covers 96% of the sRGB space (74% of Adobe RGB), whereas the 20MP48a covers 98% of sRGB (76$% of adobe). I suspect, though, that most of the difference (the "lost" 2%) is due to the difference between the more neutral 2mm thick glass on the 20MP48 and the slightly more blue-tinted, 3mm thick glass I used with the IPS224v.


« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 02:50:14 PM by DaBotz » Logged

The most incredible artist of... Barbanza?
DaBotz
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 227



View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 09:18:31 PM »

1. Almost no jitters
2. 1.1 ( 2 along at the top and lower borders, near the CCFL lamps)
3. Intuos2 12x12 (XD-1212-U)
4. HP LE2201w - Panel: Samsung LTM220MT05
5. 1680x1050 (1680x1050)
6. No (not even tried)
7. Note: the screen was already used with a 12x18 Intuos 2 (see entry above), and produced some more jitter with that, as the digitizer intercepted noise from its whole area (and its whole TCON-board length).
Jitter is about one pixel, pretty "slow" in frequency, in almost all the available tablet space, with no false clics.
The last cm near the upper lamp, jitter is more appreciable... but there are seldom useful GUI elements there anyway.
8. Yes, if one do not mind having 3 inches of unreachable screen on both sides, it still gives about 16,5" of drawing area in its middle ( 0r, 1070 x 1050 pixels)  .
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 09:34:07 PM by DaBotz » Logged

The most incredible artist of... Barbanza?
DaBotz
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 227



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 12:37:39 PM »

I finally decided to buy a colorimeter, calibrated and profiled all of my monitors ( next time, Spyder [1-5] PRO is to be preferred, as it supports multi monitor, while the "Express" goes out of his way to avoid you using a different version of the profile it create for each monitors).

Not sure if the colorimeter itself has not some instrumental derive, as they all seems a bit "orange" now... maybe I was just used to screens pushing out a bit too much blue (*).

UbiQ2 and UBiQ3 ( LG IPS224v, LG 20MP48a ) have virtually the same profile, and are very similar to the Dell 19" that I thought to use as "repeater" in case UBiQ2 was  worse.

The LP097x02 SLEA (from the Ipad 1 - 2 ) of  the MiniQ gets spanked in a horrible way (even by the stegosaurus of my monitors, the IBM 9493 I tried to use  for an A4 build, that still manages a 77% of sRGB and a 59% of AdobeRGB against MiniQ 68%-50%... I forgot to take a shot of that, my bad).  





Further enquiries have led me to discover that these colorimeters are calibrated to emulate light from the Sun - at 6500 k - reflected by paper, as their purpose it to get the screens a bit closer to how printed photos would be seen in daylight, whereas most LCD screens are natively set to work with a colder hue - so that the profiled screens produce a "warmer" tone is simply to be expected.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 02:10:11 PM by DaBotz » Logged

The most incredible artist of... Barbanza?
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!