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Author Topic: Waco: Intuos4 XL with 27 inch display (UPDATE:without integrated touchscreen)  (Read 27149 times)
lazy_mosquito
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« on: November 12, 2012, 10:51:50 PM »

Hi All,

After reading almost all the posts (took me about 12 hours) decided to build my own cintiq. Its called Waco.
I found an intuos 4 xl on ebay for 359 Euro (delivery included) It arrived last friday and it is in mint condition. I checked it already and it works flawless and it looks brand-new.

Next step is the display. The display will be a little bigger then the tablet. I think this will decrease the chance for possible jitter, because most electronic parts of the screen will be outside or further away from the tablet, and of course this will give me the biggest possible drawing surface. Also you can use the rest of the screen to park some of your tool panels. To activate them i will use a touchscreen.

Well... That's the idea...

I measured the maximum distance between my tablet and the pen and this is roughly 13 mm. I will probably win another 2 or 3 mm by dismantling the tablet. So i get roughly 15 mm distance between the tablet and the pen.

I found already two displays which looks promising:

LM230WF3-SLB1  This display is used in the AOC i2353fh. Its an 23 inch 1920x1080 e-ips display that sells for roughly 160 Euro. It has al its electronics in the stand, which makes it easy for having al the electronics far away from the tablet.
http://www.datadisplay-group.com/fileadmin/pdf/produkte/Displays/LG/LM230WF3-SLB1_Datasheet.pdf
I found an matching capacitive touchscreen but have still no prices.
This panel is about 6,5 mm thick and the touchscreen us about 3mm. Together less than 10mm thick.
All the tech specs you will find in the link below:
http://www.datadisplay-group.com/message/detail/a-fashionable-teambrlg-display-23-tft-inotouch-touch-screen/

Another contender is the LM240WU8–SLA2. It is used for instance in the following three monitors;Dell U2412m, HP ZR2440w and the Asus PA248Q. This is also an e-ips panel. but this is 24 inch 1920x1200 and 8bit.
http://www.msc-ge.com/download/displays/dabla_allg/lm240wu8-sla2.pdf
I found also a matching touchscreen.
This screen is about 10 mm thick and the touchscreen is also about 3mm thick. This is getting close to the maximum, but i expect i can win another mm in the panel by removing the metal back panel.

http://www.review-displays.co.uk/acatalog/Silver_Patterning_PCAP.html Below on the page is the link to the display panel.

A great screen would be the new display used in the new 27inch iMac. it boosts a grand 2560x1440 pixels, is s-ips and should also be around 7mm thick. But i can't find any technical data about this new screen. Anyone?

The idea is that you use the pen for accurate drawing in a certain dedicated space of the display, and control the rest with the touchscreen. A capacitive touchscreen only works with your hands and not with pens or other hard or non conductive material. It is also multitouch. The only thing i have to check is what to do with the hand which hold the pen. (palm rejection or wearing a wacom glove)

So, That's the concept in short.

The tablet i have already
next thing, decide which monitor to buy.

When anybody has any suggestions or know anything about this display panels, touch screens, etc... feel free to reply

greetings,
Pieter
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 02:19:54 PM by lazy_mosquito » Logged
Aerendraca
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 11:36:24 PM »

Welcome Lazy_mosquito.

An I4 XL Touchscreen project, wow this sounds like an ambitious project! I look forward to seeing how you get on. Your confidence makes me think that you have some sort of experience with undertaking a project such as this. Great stuff.

It's gonna be huge!!
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 11:52:28 PM »

Experience, not really. I am handy, and i have plenty of time. Hope that counts too :-)
I have not really a background in electronics; more in computers and hardware.
But i love to dissasemble things and put them back together, repair them or try to improve them.

I have seen your post and like the way you work on things. Your perseverance is intoxicating :-)
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 12:07:44 AM »

By the way, does somebody know of a build with an intuos4 tablet and a display of about 13mm thicks that works well? couldn't really find one that states this in the forums (fora?)
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bernard
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 02:15:42 AM »

welcome lazy_mosquito!   Wow, big tablet!  Some people do not realize how huge those big tablets are, until it is in their hands.

You really did read all posts? (some in diagonal of course). Well, join the club, only a handful of people can claim that (I only know 3 -- and that includes you!). So you recognize  Switz as a member name? Have you seen one of the earliest topic? Grin

A bigger display than the tablet active area?  This is calling for a little bit of trouble -- you have to tweak the display settings to reduce it (black bars). This is not always easy to achieve (typically not an option within the driver; have to find/use other tools). Or, if not, then you will have unreachable pixels on the side.  I assume you tried the Simtiq Planner to compute how many pixels will be left out?

I doubt it will make any impact (positive or negative) jitter-wise (unless you have a nice explanation?) But again, RF/magnetic field is sooooo unpredictable.
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 03:25:24 AM »

Hi Bernard,

Seen his name, your name and drewids (and some others...)name passing by a lot.  Smiley  De tablet is big indeed. I knew it and still it surprised me the moment i opened the box on my small desk. Grin
The idea is to use the complete display, and to reach the spots i can't reach with the pen with the touchscreen. So i want a combined system like the cintiq 24HD Touch. Only when this doesn't work i would try it by disabling some parts of the panel.
The idea of the jitter is that when the display is bigger, most of the electronic parts of the display (controller, led lights, etc are not on top of the tablet but on the side, and i have the idea (feeling ,and of course, i could be wrong) that they will interact less with the tablet that way.

I would prefer to use the 24 inch panel, because this gives me the biggest display, and in case the touchscreen doesn't work i don't have to disable a big part of the display. Only problem is the thickness of the panel. I have really no idea if a display of 13mm is too much for an intuos4. I think it should be possible. Will try it tommorrow with ordinary glass. (paper works, that i tried already)
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 03:31:23 AM »

And yes, some of the posts i read diagonally  Cool
I used the sintiq planner indeed, a great tool by the way. I looked for three full days on the internet if there really wasn't a 22,5 inch 1920x1200 ips display on the market, but i couldn't find one  Sad That would have been the ideal screen.

I will also try to include photo's of the build.
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Aerendraca
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 08:49:08 AM »

Being handy and having plenty of time are definitely good traits to have!! Particularly if you have spoon fulls of patience.

Like Bernard said, not all screen have the ability to adjust the visible area on the on-screen display (OSD) so this might cause you problems later if you go for a screen which is larger than the active area of the tablet. Also, even if the screen does have the option on the OSD there is a limit to how small you can make the visible area which is dependent upon the screen itself.

Bernard: Do you know of any tools, bits of software that can achieve this? Does powerstrip have this ability?
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bernard
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2012, 03:18:19 PM »

yes powerstrip (not sure about switchresx) can be used to control those parameters. There are catches thought. Would have to look at posts on the forum on that subject.
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2012, 05:38:40 PM »

At this moment i am looking and bargaining for a 23 inch 16:10 panel. If it works out, i don't have to change the dimensions of the panel. Only problem: the only 23 inch ips panels made are  the LM230W02 panels, which use ccfl backlight. So i would have to disassemble the ccfls and replace them with ledbacklighting. And i would have to create a new diffuser. Maybe i can just scavenge a cheap new panel for the diffuser and the ledlights. It will probably be cheaper then try to create my own diffuser and the LED-strips are a bonus  Grin

detailed specs of the LM230W02 panel you can find here.
http://www.avidia.com.tw/docs/product/LM230W02-A2.pdf
The sizes are OK, and i suspect that the old backlighting is rather easy to remove and gives a nice thin start for the build up of the new backlight.
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Aerendraca
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2012, 07:25:54 PM »

You might not need to replace the ccfls, you might get lucky and not have problems with them. If you do go the LED route though I would think that you can probably use the same diffuser and just replace the ccfls - I did this in my build. There are issues associated with this too I'm afraid, for example you will have to remove the inverter that drives the CCFLs. With any luck this will be a separate circuit board on the screen you get, in which case you can remove it and buy an LED upgrade kit which is pretty much plug and play although a little pricey. The alternative is to go the route I went and use a different power supply, and build a circuit to run the lights. It's all good fun! 
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2012, 09:59:11 PM »

@Aerendraca

Problem is they are real back ccfl's. There are about 8 ccfl's and the complete body is about 40 mm thick. The diffuser is only 3mm thick. So if i can get hold on such a screen, i would first try the existing diffuser, but i am afraid that the diffuser will be too thin to guide the light from the sides to the middle. If i could replace the existing diffuser with a thicker model (one from a recent edge-lit Led screen) than i would only have to cut the diffuser to the right size and use the leds from the newer model. (if i can shorten the led rail to)
It's more like i use the diffuser and LED's + electronics from one screen, and the LCD+electronics from the other screen. Because the LCD is the right size, i don't need the touchscreen (i will still try to mount it, because i am shure this makes it more userfriendly) but if the touchscreen doesn't work, i am not stuck with a too big screen with inaccessible spots.
Another advantage of using the right-size LCD is that i can use the top of my Intuos-xl case which is looking really good. I would just have to change the bottom of my existing case.
The only problem is that most of this 23 inch panels are now already 5-6 years old. By changing the backlight i would renew the part that wears the most, but still i am a bit afraid for the colors of this panels.
Hope i get an  answer tomorrow about the availabillity and the price of the screen
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Aerendraca
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2012, 10:49:15 PM »

Ahh I see, that makes sense. In which case I would have to agree that a 3mm diffuser that size might not be enough and will need swapping out for another diffuser.
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bernard
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 04:47:40 PM »

colors accuracy is typically dependent on the backlight perfect diffusion. If you care about colors that much, I think you should not even attempt to build or cut your own backlight. You are aiming for top quality! I do not know if colors of 5 years old IPS lcds are really that bad. They were pretty good. Really, the backlight is often the culprit.
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Aerendraca
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 07:24:23 PM »

I'd tend to agree with Bernard, although I feel that the WLED backlight on my build improves the colours this is probably a combination of the original backlight not being up to scratch in the first place, and a great deal of luck. I guess it's also personal preference too.

As for 5 year old IPS screens, I can't see why the colours would be that bad. From a quick search it seems it's reckoned that CCFLs change colour slightly (go a little yellow) in the first 6months of heavy use (8 hours a day) but do not change that much after that until their demise, however CCFL bulbs typically have a lifetime of 18000 to 25000 hours, so for 8 hours a day use 365 days a year the CCFLS might be coming to the end of their lifetime in the fifth year which might be a reason to not get a screen of this age. WLEDs on the other have a lifetime of ~50000hours meaning you could probably expect another 10-12 years of lifetime from them (after 5 years), and the colour change is much more gradual with an overall colour change that is really only noticeable towards the end of their lifetime and when directly compared against new WLEDs of the same type. What I'm getting at is that after 5 years the colours on either a CCFL or WLED backlit screen would probably still look pretty damn good, although the CCFLs might be on their way out if you bought a screen from someone that was a really heavy user.
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