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Author Topic: Waco: Intuos4 XL with 27 inch display (UPDATE:without integrated touchscreen)  (Read 27119 times)
lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 03:10:34 AM »

That's in fact rather good news. I am not that picky about the perfect colour, for that i should use a calibrated specific monitor. It's just that i want a nice looking panel. I was afraid that the panel itself also would degrade after a while. But if the most wearing factor is the ccfl, than it can only improve if i change the worn ccfl with a new backlight. (IF i get the diffuser right of course...  Roll Eyes )

If i get a nice deal with 23 inch panel, i try that for sure because it is the perfect size. If i can't get a nice deal for that panel, i think i should first try to get my hands on a touch panel to check if this works in combination with the tablet. If this works perfect i can choose the display panel in function of the touch panel and the display can be bigger than the tablet, otherwise i would take a display panel that isn't bigger than the tablet.

If,if,if... I think this is one of the most important choices for the build, so much depends on the choice of the display panel.

@aerendraca and @Bernard: Thanks for al the replies. It helps me making decisions...
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bernard
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 03:15:32 AM »

Question about the touch: how are you planning to use the touch panel? I mean for what use exactly? 
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 04:34:05 AM »

I would like to use it as the cintiq 24 hd Touch.
Drawing with my right hand with the art-pen and manipulating the canvas, the pen, the colours with my left hand. Because the touchscreen has to be multitouch i can use it also for normal windows operation. I know i can also do this manipulations with the express keys, but if it works well with the touchscreen. it would be a lot easier to use a bigger screen, i don't need the complete screen to be pen enabled. All the menus could be activated by touchscreen, but if you want you can have a nice overview of your drawing by hiding the menus. It would be more like drawing on actual paper.
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bernard
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 05:44:54 AM »

Ok, I understand it better.

I just did a quick search and turns out Windows 7 has support for touch (or there is a kit you can download to enable it if it is not there). It adds support for the internal WM_TOUCH message, etc.  What that means is that all hardware manufacturers that ship a Windows driver, should work out of the box for your purpose. I was skeptical, but now I am encouraged.

I wish it was the same with the "stylus".  There was no such standardization (other than WinTab which is really a problem -- still a big one today -- Software like Adobe Photoshop would only work with WinTab and refuse to use the (much more recent) standard Microsoft API instead.  AFAIK, Art Rage for Windows works with both standards.


Do you know if one can move (or even rotate?) the canvas as you would move a piece of paper within Art Rage (on Windows)? It is not very clear from the docs. Although I bought Art Rage, I do not have a touch device on a PC to try it out.
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Aerendraca
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 10:51:46 AM »

Ooooo..... That sounds like a great idea, might look into doing something similar with my build at some stage.
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 01:20:03 PM »

@ Bernard:

I don't know: i only use Painter for drawing with my tablet (sometimes Photoshop, but it works not as smooth as Painter with a tablet. At least that is my experience)

The only thing i am wondering is how the tablet and the touchpanel are gone react on each other. For example: i move one finger not on purpose of my lefthand. Will this draw a line? or could i diasble for instance all the single touch commands for the tablet and only let the dual touch commands have some impact.
eg:
  • swipe with 2 fingers : move canvas
  • pinch: zoom in or out
  • rotate two fingers: rotate canvas
  • pinch 3 fingers: change size brush

Can this be done while your pen is on the tablet, or should we lift the pen first?

In this demo of the 24hd cintiq you got an idea of what i want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWxD5E-zzIU

cintiq 24hd touch works with a capactitve touchscreen and is really multitouch (all 10 fingers)
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Dikymon
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 01:37:56 PM »

I use the AOC i2353fh in our diy project (The Anntiq), i'd recommend it - Takes a beating, cables are pretty long and it's cheap. I doubt you'd the little extra area is worth the extra effort/money.

I'd like to add a touch screen to ours but i'd like it to work as the Intuos5 line where it disables the touch function when the pen is near the surface. But im too incompetent to figure out how to make that happen Smiley

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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 02:13:38 PM »

@ Dikymon

THis screen was long on my wish list"(IPS, very thin +/- 7mm, al electronics separate in the stand) in fact everything you wish for. Only one disadvantage. It is too wide. If the touchscreen works, no probs at all, but otherwise you have a spot which is difficult to reach. i expect you already checked the simtiq-planner? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11275473/simtiq_planner.html EDIT: Yes you did just read your build which i had completely missed  Huh
 BTW: great build  

My panel is ordered. (200 euros for a 23,5 inch ips panel HP L2335.) That is more than you pay for the AOC. i know, but it is a perfect match..
On the other hand if this doesn't work out, then i will go for the AOC i2335fh.

That's indeed a good idea, to disable the touchscreen automatically if your pen is in reach.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 03:09:06 PM by lazy_mosquito » Logged
bernard
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 03:41:26 PM »

Touch:  Oh yeah, the main issue is a feature well known as "palm rejection". Something *I believe* you do not get with devices that are separate. This is indeed a big blocker to integrate a  touch within a DIY cintiq.

The idea is to "inhibit" touch events when a "pen event" is detected. Maybe there is something that can be done around a touch driver. I know in Windows it is very easy to listen to HID packets (Wacom tablets are HID), I would have to interpret them (not difficult to interpret) to detect when the pen is touching the tablet. Then, we need to feed that state to the touch driver and "block" those events.

Maybe we can ask NJYTouch -- they are in the "touch" business afterall !!
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2012, 09:28:35 PM »

Good idea,

I am first going to check if i can catch that signal in one or another way. Shouldn't be that difficult. On the intuos3 series there is even a blue led that activates everytime the pen is near the tablet. Hopefully there is still something like that in the intuos 4 series.
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 02:53:16 AM »

Finally the art pen is arrived. I needed that for testing the possible thickness of the display. I have a mouse but i am not sure if they have exactly the same characteristics. Especially the tilt and the rotation are important to me. And you work also differently with a mouse. You don't lift it, whilst a pen is lifted all the time when you use it. Even when it is possible to get 13 mm distance between your tablet and your pen, you still need a little buffer between your display and your pen to draw in a comfortable way. Otherwise it feels like your pointer jumps all the way from one point to another.

I have been thinking and calculating the whole weekend. And i am going for it. If the pen works comfortably with a display of 13.5 mm thick then i will buy the ASUS PB278Q. It has a whopping 2560x1440 pixels, is 27 inch big, has a separate powersupply and the panel is only 10,5 mm thick and . (and i will win another 1mm by cutting out the bottom of the panel) If i do it very carefully and it doesn't work for the tablet, i still have a marvelous screen to work with.  Cool

The panel specifications can be found here:
http://www.datadisplay-group.com/fileadmin/pdf/produkte/Displays/Samsung/LTM270DL02_Datasheet.pdf

I am sure i can find a solution for the touchscreen. I never thought of the possibility to disable the signal of the touchscreen when the pen was near. I was always thinking of a combination which was much more complicated (thanks dikymon for the idea)

The good:
Great screen
i will have to build a complete new housing for the tablet (much better shielding)

The bad:
expensive
The touchscreen will be necessary to work fluently
I will have to build a complete new housing for the tablet (lots of work, more expensive)

Tomorrow i start measuring the distance and if it works out i will first start to draw the plans for the case.
The case will be completely in aluminum, and because it will be build up from the ground i can tackle some problems all together (shielding, cooling of the ledstrip, sturdiness)
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Aerendraca
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 08:44:41 AM »

That's a huge screen!!! I have a 27" HP monitor (same resolution) on my desktop and I have to have it set back on the desk because it's so big. As a tablet screen you're gonna want a whole load of desktop space to use it. I notice that the screen has white LED Edges slim backlight on one side only, this suggests that to provide a bright enough lighting the LEDs with be very bright and hence perhaps very hot, you might have to put something in place to allow some sort of cooling.
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 06:05:03 PM »

@ Aerendraca: you're right about the cooling: In fact that's one of the reasons i finally decided to go for the 27 inch display. I woud have had the same problem with my 23 inch build (see at the anntiq build. He had also to create a rather complex cooling in his build.) So i decided that reusing the intuos case wasn't the way to go. It looks very slick but regarding to cooling it is a pain.
So The new build will be completely in aluminium which has good cooling properties and good shielding properties.
But if i am going to design a complete new case then i create the tablet i want, which means big.  Cool
This evening i am going to draw the plans.

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bernard
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 06:09:33 PM »

Nice panel indeed.

10.5 mm ??  Yipes!  Yeah, being that thick is a bit on the risky side, but hey, it might just work fine. Smiley

10.5mm is about double the thickness I am used to.  

The datasheet says it is edge-lit (1 side). -- I guess the backlight diffuser is required to be thick to diffuse the light up to the other side(??).
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lazy_mosquito
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 06:47:15 PM »

@ Bernard
The problem is that the bigger the panel is the thicker the glass has to be, and indeed the diffuser. There is a new 27 inch panel coming from the new imac which should be slimmer, but i can't find anything about it. It will be released in December, but i have no idea when the panels will be available separatly  Sad

On the other hand: i will cut out the bottom panel so i will gain 1 mm. That's 9,5 mm and 3mm for a tempered glass touchpanel. Embarrassed
I have just dissasembled my tablet and measured the maximum distance with a stack of paper. I got perfect signal up to 17,6 mm and up to 21 mm still almost perfect signal.

Does anybody know if there is a difference between paper and an lcd screen concerning the distance you got with your pen?
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