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Author Topic: Something isn't right with my LCD screen  (Read 9767 times)
Aerendraca
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2013, 09:04:36 AM »

I seem to have missed the updates on this thread and it seems you're almost done but you have jitter issues, perhaps we could see some pictures of the setup?

As for powerstrip, it is a great tool with a poor gui and no instructions. The thing to remember with it is that it was never really designed for tft lcd panels but for crt screens. I've played about with this software a lot and my one piece of advise for preventing crashes is to turn off the live update feature, instead after each change click apply.

As it appears that it is the screen which is causing the jitter it is likely that it is the horizontal scan rate causing you problems. Are you using the standard 1400x1050 resolution of this screen or some other value?

since others have used the same panel I'm inclined to think that this might be more a problem with shielding. This is where photos are useful.

another note on powerstrip while i think of it, is that you could try reducing the back and front porch's instead of the refresh or scan rate directly, this will in turn reduce the total number of blanking pixels to be scanned and therefore bring down the scan and refresh rates. I would start with the vertical back porch as this directly affects the horizontal scan rate (horizontal scan rate = refresh rate x total vertical pixels). My tip here would be to drop it one at a time clicking apply after each change.

here's a brief explanation of what the porchs do; originally crt screens scanned a horizontal line at a time starting in the top left and working down. So that the picture appeared undistorted at the end of each horizontal scan the electron beam was shut off for a period of time to allow it to be positioned at the start of the next row and to give the voltages time to balance, this is dubbed blanking time and is a period of time introduced by adding virtual pixels to the beginning (front porch) and the end (back porch). Modern tft screens still have this legacy feature for use with older graphics drivers that insist upon using blanking, but in actuality this value doesn't need to be so large these days (but a small amount of blanking is still necessary).

Basically for a simpler life, make sure your shielding is good first, then mess about with powerstrip.
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TheIdeaCan
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 01:18:29 AM »

As requested, here are some photos of the build so far to show how it's shielded and what it looks like. I did discover that the offset cursor was due to my own error when I cut the center section of the Intuos to mount the LCD screen. It turns out I didn't cut the hole high enough up and it wasn't allowing the LCD to sit in line with the Wacom sensor. Cutting the plastic back some more on top resulted in the cursor lining up as close as it can be when parallax is considered.

* mon7.jpg (62.15 KB. 700x525 - viewed 316 times.)

The screen as it currently looks "assembled" on a modified stand from an old HP 1530 monitor that allows 180 degree rotation as well as tilt.

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The screen sitting on the tablet. Behind the Rust-oleum orange painter's tape is a layer of copper shielding tape that wraps around the perimeter of the screen and is linked via a wire to the ground it to the back control enclosure.

* mon1.jpg (30.24 KB. 700x525 - viewed 340 times.)

I also added a little bit of copper tape over the screws that mount the control enclosure to the Intuos and covered them with painter's tape to prevent electrical connection with the Wacom shield.

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Screen assembly with cut out center section put in place. I'm still not sure if the double-sided foam tape I bought is going to be too thick or not to allow a tight attachment of the top cover.

* mon4.jpg (64.04 KB. 700x525 - viewed 346 times.)

The back Hammond control enclosure with boards in place. The entire case is lined in copper shielding tape with additional shielding tape over a layer of painter's tape around the inverter. Painter's tape was also used to separate the LCD controller board and keypad PCBs from the contacting the bottom of the case. I also ran a ground wire between the ground screw for the inverter and the ground point on the LCD controller. The back of the Intuos was painted black to "match" the black powder-coated Hammond enclosure. The best part about this case is that, aside from about 1" of the LCD controller cable, everything is contained within either it or the Intuos itself

* mon5.jpg (67.73 KB. 700x525 - viewed 349 times.)

A shot of my button extensions for the keypad. made using some 6-32 screws, no. 6 washers, shortened compression springs and nickel plated acorn nuts. You can also see in the previous photo where I had to add a couple layers of foam tape to prevent the PCB from rotating when the buttons are pressed.

* mon6.jpg (73.15 KB. 700x525 - viewed 311 times.)

A final "beauty shot" of the screen turned on. This was taken before I modified the center section to slide the LCD screen up more. I've got a little touch up work to do to my paint job since there's now about a 3/16" space at the bottom of the screen that the paint isn't covering and it's allowing light bleed through.

I'm still at a complete loss on my jitter issues. I've literally shielded everything that I can think of to shield, but I'm still getting some amount of jitter at any refresh rate I try in Powerstrip. Using either 56hz or 58hz seem to result in the least amount of jitter in the center of the screen, but it's still noticeably present along the edges of the screen. I've also noticed that my jitter is almost completely unaffected by whether the metal trim ring around the LCD is attached or not, which really makes me think my problem may be the screen itself (not the model of screen but the physical screen I have in my possession). I'm also curious as to how much of the back of the CCFL shield had to be cut off in the K-Jintiq build (and other similar builds) since I cut mine down quite a bit, but I've got roughly 1/4" at the top of my screen where the shield is that the pen won't read through. Maybe I need to cut it down even further.

I'm still considering putting together a second build using a screen and digitizer from a tablet PC as this build is totally unusable in it's current jittery state. I know the HP TX2000 screens work and the digitizer is USB, but the poor viewing angles and color of the TN LCD has me concerned (something I hate about my TC4400 and I've heard is worse with the addition of the touchpanel). I've looked at possibly getting the LCD screen assembly from a Lenovo X200 or X201 since LED backlit IPS screens are available for them (though they may use a 20-pin connector instead of 30-pin), but I don't know if the digitizer is UART or USB. Another option I considered was the screen and digitizer from a Fujitsu T5010 or T2010, but I seem to remember reading that most of the digitizers Fujitsu uses are UART. The screen/digitizer assembly from a T2010 was suggested in a tablet PC forum to replace the screen and digitizer for a HP TM2, but they weren't sure if the connections were the same for the 12W03AS-01X digitizer in the Fujitsu. I guess that at least, as of 2010 when the forum topic was started, the Hydis HV121WX6 screen from the T2010 was one of the best screens available. Any idea whether that digitizer is UART or USB? Ideally if I went this route, I'd want to use both the LCD and digitizer from the same tablet PC as it would minimize the possibility of any jitter occurring and right now I can pick up a complete and working Fujitsu T2010 for about $80 used or buy a new replacement LCD screen assembly for a HP TX2000 for about $90. Decisions, decisions.

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bernard
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 02:06:35 AM »

Did you say that with the LCD turned OFF, you still have jitter issue?
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TheIdeaCan
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 03:58:03 AM »

With the LCD completely OFF, I don't get jitter. In fact, the only way I don't have jitter is if the LCD screen is completely off. If the screen is on but the backlight is disconnected, I still get jitter. Really, with the shielding I've got in place, the backlight being on or off (surprisingly) doesn't cause a difference in the amount of jitter. It seems that my jitter is actually being caused by the LCD screen itself (primarily on the 3 sides that don't have the backlight). Which has led me to wonder if it's the physical screen I have that is causing the problem. However, I'm not sure if I want to dump the money into buying another LP150E05-A2K1 LCD screen right now in the hope that it will magically work. So right now, it's a 5-10 lb paper weight that can be used as either a Wacom tablet OR a 1400x1050 IPS monitor. Not both at the same time.

Hence why I was considering the tablet PC screen route so that I can at least get something useable while I try to decide whether to mess with this thing any more or not. My profession is largely based on my ability to create illustrations and my TC4400 is really showing its age. So I need something with zero jitter (or at least nearly zero) to be a viable replacement and I can't really justify the expense of an actual Cintiq (nor am I really happy with the Wacom's use of TN panels in most of their models of Cintiq). Of course I also don't want to start a tablet PC build unless I can get a digitizer that is USB based as I'd prefer to not have to mess with trying to get a Teensy to work and then get the drivers to recognize it.

From everything I've been reading about the Fujitsu T2010 or it's replacement the T2020 (with it's use of a WLED backlight IPS screen), it has the possibility of being the perfect donor. But only if the digitizer is USB and I can't find any information about the SU5E-12W03AS-01X anywhere online. So I'm hesitant to spend the $80+ on buying a T2010 and hoping it has a usable digitizer. Another option is the screen assembly from a Fujitsu T730. It uses the same WLED IPS screen as the T2010 and T2020, but uses a different digitizer (SU5E-12W28AS-01X). From the digitizers I've seen, most T730s have a date code from 2011 vs. the 2007/08 of the T2010 and T2020 digitizers. Not sure if that might make a difference. I know the other piece of the puzzle is finding out if NJYTouch sells a LCD controller that will work with the 1280x800 WLED Hydis HV121WX6 screens, but China is celebrating "National Day" this week and NJYTouch is closed until Monday.
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bernard
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 07:55:53 AM »

I wish I had my scope hooked to your LCD just to check on the generated frequencies. If **really** you were able to change them (after all, you got into _lots_ of trouble trying to do that). Your build is really a great and promising one.  I understand that time is of essence and you need to earn money!

You do not have access (through a friend) to any other PC / Mac or (inexpensive/old) graphics card that you could try (without spending a dime of course).

In which area of the world do you live again?

Tablet PC: yeah -- no safe bet formula there either. The safest is to buy an off-the-shelf product, not to build one with spare parts!

You can't use the Wacom tablet alone and your old device for the steps that really requires you to draw on the screen?
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TheIdeaCan
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 07:06:23 PM »

I live in the Rust Belt of 'Murrica (Ohio) where funnily enough there are actually people that pronounce America that way. The only good part about the area I'm in is close proximity to Fastenal, Parts Express, a few Surplus Electronics stores, Alro Steel (where I can buy aluminum and plastic sheet and plate by the pound), and a bunch of out of work machinists that will generally work for cheap (and usually mispronounce the name of the country).

I've actually been putting off getting more design work while I fiddle with this project. So I'm technically losing money every day it isn't working (the benefit and curse of working as a freelancer). I just really want to retire my old tablet PC since it can't run any Adobe software newer than CS5 and it bogs down on large Photoshop files. I've lost out on movie poster jobs in the past because I knew my TC4400 would have a heart attack trying to create a 300 dpi one-sheet poster. I've also been using a tablet PC for about 7 years now and trying to use a regular Wacom tablet where I'm not looking at my hand and the screen at the same time is far too awkward to be useful (the main reason I got a tablet PC in the first place back in 2006).

Somewhere I've got a copy of OSX (I think Lion) that I picked up to build a Hackintosh once. So I've considered installing it on an extra hard drive I've got sitting around to see if I can eliminate the jitter with SwitchResX. I've also got a workstation PC with a NVidia Quadro FX4800 that I use for Solidworks and video editing work that I could try hooking the screen up to and test it there. I almost got an oscilloscope as well (when a friend of mine was trying to get rid of 5-6 extra scopes he had a few years ago), but I couldn't figure out at the time what I'd need one for (hindsight is 20/20). If I can find a setting on either SwitchResX or in NVidia's software that eliminates the jitter, I can try plugging those numbers into Powerstrip and see if it works. I really just want to have a back-up plan in case I still can't eliminate the jitters.

I've only got about $200 more that I can afford to spend right now. Thus a used Cintiq or Chinese clone is out of the question. I could possibly get a Yiynova DP10 for about $200 but my Galaxy Note 10.1 has about the same screen size and it's too small for anything but sketching. So I want to at least maintain the 12.1" screen size (even if it is widescreen). Hence the consideration of putting together another monitor using parts from a newer Fujitsu, Lenovo, or HP tablet PC. I know it's not as foolproof as an off-the-shelf product, but people like Trashie have proved it's possible (at least with the TX2000). It's a shame that the Toshiba Tecra M4 and M7 use serial digitizers, since a 14.1" screen at 1400x1050 or 1440x900 would be great. I heard that the HP TX2000 and TM2 both have the digitizer physically integrated with the LCD screen because of the touchscreen part. Is there any truth to this? The reason I'm wondering is I'm seriously considering picking up a 12.1" Fujitsu (at least the LCD screen assembly) and I'm curious if I could swap a TX2000 or TM2 USB digitizer if it turns out that the Fujitsu is serial.
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bernard
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 07:58:32 PM »

Still, 12 inch is not that big nowadays for doing 300dpi posters!  (especially the widescreen formats)

Hackintosh: lots of fiddling ahead, but it could work indeed. At least enough to see if you have a chance with just playing with frequencies. Another option is to call ATI support and try to get down to a knowledgeable person that might know enough to fiddle with the software to tweak the frequencies.  Some hard-core gaming enthusiasts love to tweak the output frequencies so this is no big surprise.

Again, you really have no Mac or PC friends that would be willing to spend a whole evening to run switchResX / PowerStrip to try it (you would bring your toy there).   I mean, if you can prove it works, then you know that you have a viable solution. Enough to justify putting a bit of money in a solution to have a controllable (good enough) NVidia. (do you really need to get the hottest 3D game graphic card in town?)

Again, you could just buy a Nvidia card in a shop where they accept a 10-day refunds.  Enough time to try it out.  In any case you can return it.
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TheIdeaCan
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2013, 08:58:44 PM »

I know 12 inch isn't that big nowadays (forgive my desire to add a "That's what she said" comment). That's why my secondary monitor is a 32" screen for checking details.

I was concerned that the Hackintosh route may be more trouble than it's worth just to test refresh rates. The downside would be if I could get it to work with no jitter in OSX but not in Windows since all my design software is Windows based rather than Mac. I did find a couple of pieces of software that a guy developed to get 120hz refresh rates with an ATI card. Though I don't know if it will work for lower than 60hz refresh rates or not. I still need to download them and try them out to see if it will help or not.
AMD/ATI Pixel Clock Patcher (removes the 330mhz pixel clock limit for dual link DVI, but I'm not sure if it's needed with the lower pixel clock that the homebrew Cintiqs need) - http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-AMD-ATI-Pixel-Clock-Patcher
Custom Resolution Utility (supposed to allow custom resolutions to be defined by creating EDID overrides directly in the registry without having to deal with inf files and could be useful for bypassing the need to use Powerstrip) - http://www.monitortests.com/cru-1.1.zip

All my friends that own Macs live in other states (or they own Macbooks and don't know how to use them) and most that own PCs only use graphics cards good enough to connect a monitor to their computer (i.e. not really computer savvy). In fact, thinking about it, most people I know only know how to use their computers for playing Facebook games and updating their Twitter feeds. So all of the testing will have to be done by me unfortunately. The worst part about my decision to buy the HD7850 graphics card (which I just bought about 2 months ago and aside from the ATI refresh rate thing is a fantastic card) is that I was initially trying to decide between it and a NVidia GTX 650ti Boost, but opted for the ATI card because it had better benchmarks (gaming and otherwise). I was totally unaware of the ability to adjust refresh rates with NVidia cards at the time and at this point would rather not have to buy another graphics card.

I did find that the Asus R1F used a variant (01A instead of 03A) of the 13.3" digitizers that a guy on eBay is selling in batches of 35 or 50. I also found a guy that is selling the entire LCD assembly from a R1F for less than $40 (just waiting on confirmation that it isn't damaged) and NJYTouch sells a 20-pin LVDS cable for use with their controller boards that mentions the LCD panel from the R1F. Which leads me to assume that they sell a controller for it as well (though I still need to contact them to find out for sure). So it's possible that I could put together a 13.3" 1280x800 build for around $100 (which is still better than the 12.1" 1024x768 TC4400 I'm currently using).

So I'm going to fiddle with the software I found to see if it works, but I'll probably go ahead and order the R1F screen assembly and one of the 5v to 3.3v step-down voltage regulators that you linked to from the SU-13W02E-03A thread in case I need to start working on a backup plan. Plus, who knows? Maybe I'll end up finding another cheap option for building a homebrew Cintiq in the process.
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TheIdeaCan
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 09:17:16 PM »

I don't mean to double-post, but I think I may have made an exciting discovery. I found a TabletPC Forum thread from 2008 where guys were complaining about not being able to run the Wacom drivers for Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn on their Asus R1F computers because the drivers only worked with serial Wacom digitizers at the time. Plus there was a guy that mentioned, "...yes the drivers for Asus R1F and other tablet pcs that use internal usb HID will be supported along with penabled drivers in June...". So I think it's safe to assume that the R1F has a USB digitizer and, according to reviews it got when it came out, has a screen (though not IPS) that has pretty good viewing angles and color. Looks like I've found a donor for my backup plan.
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bernard
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 02:33:31 AM »

OOooh! that Custom Resolution by ToastyX seem good in the sense that you can tweak all the parameters and it even the do math to fit one of the three frequencies of your choice (pixel clock, horizontal frequency or refresh rate).   The downside is it does not seem to have a way to "try it live" (which was something great with PowerStrip -- when it works of course).  Finding the good frequency is a total trial and error thing and there is a vast choice. So every split second counts when trying one set of numbers.
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TheIdeaCan
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2013, 08:19:33 AM »

I thought you might like the Custom Resolution Utility. It may be good to let others know about it as an option if they're having the same troubles I've had with Powerstrip (plus it's free). I haven't messed with it much yet because of the need to restart the computer each time you make a change, but I figure I've got some time to play with it while I wait for parts to my new build to show up.

I went ahead and bought an Asus R1F screen assembly off eBay to try a tablet pc based build and placed an order for a 3.3V step-down voltage regulator (for a total cost so far of about $39). I'm also thinking of ordering a female USB port from Mouser (to allow me to use a standard USB cable to connect the tablet screen to my computer) when I order the enclosure for the extra electronics. Then it will just require waiting on NJYTouch to get back in the office so I can order a LCD controller. Other things I'm considering include hacking together a small USB based programmable keyboard to attach to the back of the screen to give me some hot key functionality and possibly tearing apart a USB hub to allow me to just run one USB cable from the screen assembly to the computer (though I'm unsure if additional power would be needed to run both the digitizer and a USB keyboard). I'm also curious whether I'll be able to hook up the hot keys from the R1F screen for CTRL+ALT+DEL and Escape or if they'll just be useless buttons. Once I start getting the parts in, I'll start up a build thread for it.
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bernard
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 03:12:33 PM »

USB hub: no need for extra power to power the digitizer and a (standard) keyboard.
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